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Wii

Kojima Plays Super Smash Bros. Brawl

by Steven Rodriguez - April 27, 2007, 10:28 pm PDT
Total comments: 44 Source: Kojima Productions Report

The father of Metal Gear Solid recently got the chance to test-drive his own character against Sakurai's Mario.

Speaking on the (official) Kojima Productions Report podcast, host Ryan Payton let it be known that Metal Gear Solid series creator Hideo Kojima played Super Smash Bros. Brawl at Masahiro Sakurai's development studio. According to Payton, Kojima thought that Brawl, as he played it, "felt very complete" and "was a lot of fun." Kojima later said that Nintendo "could probably put it out now and it would sell millions of copies."

The KP Report podcast also noted that Kojima was playing as Snake and Sakurai was playing as Mario during his play time. Apparently, Kojima didn't want to attack Mario "out of respect," seeing as how he grew up with Nintendo's number one mascot.

This little tidbit of news is interesting, not only because it shows how much of a wuss the creator of Solid Snake really is (who wouldn't want to beat the crap out of Mario when playing Smash Bros.?) but also shows how far along the game is in development. Nintendo has been quiet on Brawl for a while, so it's good to hear that the game is at least mostly complete from a third party. That brings high hopes that the Wii's Super Smash Bros. game will come out this year. But will it still be online?

Talkback

GREAT NEWS!

Good to hear that progress is being made. Hope online can be accomplished... but that'd be a miracle since frame-rate dependent fighting games just don't do online...

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

~via Wii

Infernal MonkeyApril 27, 2007

Quote

Apparently, Kojima didn't want to attack Mario "out of respect," seeing as how he grew up with Nintendo's number one mascot.


"Wow Kojima, you really suck at this game, I've avoided all your attacks and you've walked right off the edges about ten times now"
"No no, I don't want to hit Mario out of respect.. yes yes, that will do well as my excuse"
"Get out"

KDR_11kApril 27, 2007

I wonder if Mario can use his Strikers outfit?

LouieturkeyApril 28, 2007

Hey, even if it's one-on-one online multiplayer, that is something. I wouldn't be suprised if it's like Mario Stikers Charged where you can play against one other Wii console online, but can have a combination of 4 players between the two. Like, one vs. one, two vs. two, three vs. one, etc.

NephilimApril 28, 2007

yeah 2 on 2 would be awsome for online, less lag/loss compared with 4 different connections

Aslong they arnt samus spammers in 2 on 2, hate them in touraments face-icon-small-frown.gif

S-U-P-E-RTy Shughart, Staff AlumnusApril 28, 2007

Quote

That brings high hopes that the Wii's Super Smash Bros. game will come out this year. But will it still be online?
This is quite a bit different from the old "will" be out at launch and "will" have online statements I was hearing a year ago. I waited in line in the cold to make sure I had a Wii when Smash came out, not to get tired of Warioware after playing it like six times. Every day without Smash is like another day with an emulator that cost like two hundred dollars.

Poor Ty. Let's all cry for Ty because he doesn't like Zelda.

ShyGuyApril 28, 2007

S-U-P-E-R, may I suggest Super Swing Golf? It comes highly recommended.

Smash_BrotherApril 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R when Smash came out


Don't be jumping to any conclusions. face-icon-small-tongue.gif

I want them to take as long as possible for Brawl. It can be released in 2010 and I'd still love it.

And 1v1 fighting would be fine because it would force them to balance characters in a 1v1 setting, no more of people saying "It's balanced because it's meant to be four player! LULZ!"

NotRimmerApril 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
Quote

That brings high hopes that the Wii's Super Smash Bros. game will come out this year. But will it still be online?
This is quite a bit different from the old "will" be out at launch and "will" have online statements I was hearing a year ago. I waited in line in the cold to make sure I had a Wii when Smash came out, not to get tired of Warioware after playing it like six times. Every day without Smash is like another day with an emulator that cost like two hundred dollars.


Buying a system at launch for a game that may or may not come out sometime within the next year is pretty dumb

Madcat221April 28, 2007

You eagerly wish to beat up the Mascot and Savior of the Video Game Industry? Is nothing sacred to you, Philistine? face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Shift KeyApril 28, 2007

I'm with Infernal on this.

"Wow, look at those graphics oh no i fell off again."
"Kojima-san, this is the menu screen. We haven't even chosen characters yet."
"Truly this is next-gen. I will say wow now."

That's why Mario is one of my mains. Especially when I'm playing crazy, metaphorical-spinning, high-profile Japanese game directors.

SheckyApril 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And 1v1 fighting would be fine because it would force them to balance characters in a 1v1 setting, no more of people saying "It's balanced because it's meant to be four player! LULZ!"


You can't have a ton of characters, unique move traits, and have it all fully balanced in a 1on1 matchup... it can not be done! although you can get close enough

Edit: Oh, and I never found smash entertaining 1 on 1 ... and with no items? What's the point? You might as well play street fighter instead. face-icon-small-smile.gif

Smash_BrotherApril 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Shecky You might as well play street fighter instead. face-icon-small-smile.gif


Except for the fact that it sucks.

SSB is the antithesis of Street Fighter and all its vile ilk. Rather than memorizing how to input asinine and drawn out commands to control your character, you simply control your character.

1v1 SSB matches can be plenty of fun and are the best way to learn another player's strategies.

Also, I realize that balance is hard to accomplish, but Sakurai has been quoted as saying that character balance is something they'll be keeping in mind.

S-U-P-E-RTy Shughart, Staff AlumnusApril 29, 2007

Quote

Except for the fact that it sucks.

SSB is the antithesis of Street Fighter and all its vile ilk. Rather than memorizing how to input asinine and drawn out commands to control your character, you simply control your character.
Because quarter-circles are sooooooooooo hard. Don't be retarded.

KDR_11kApril 29, 2007

I bet he can't even pull off a Z.

But there are some evil inputs in some fighting games (Dizzy's supers in GG?). Fortunately not in Melty Blood or Bleach DS :P.

Smash_BrotherApril 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R Because quarter-circles are sooooooooooo hard. Don't be retarded.


Yes, because all the cool kids hit back, back, toward, low kick, up, high kick, low punch, toward, down-toward, down, low kick when they want to make their character throw a fireball.

And then there's the fact that the series has seen more milking than the entire state of Wisconsin and the practice of Lactophilia since its inception in ancient Rome, combined.

*ahem*

Street Fighter
Fighting Street (Turbo CD)
Street Fighter (ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Street Fighter II (Nintendo Game Boy - this version combined elements from the first 4 versions of SFII )
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (TurboGrafx-16 - Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (SNES - part of Street Fighter II Turbo - Hyper Fighting)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (Mega Drive/Genesis - part of Street Fighter II' - Special Champion Edition)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II' (Sega Master System)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' Turbo / Street Fighter II' - Hyper Fighting
Street Fighter II Turbo - Hyper Fighting (SNES)
Street Fighter II' - Special Champion Edition / Street Fighter II' Plus (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
Street Fighter II' Turbo / Street Fighter II' - Hyper Fighting (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II' Turbo - Hyper Fighting (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' Turbo - Hyper Fighting (Xbox 360 - downloadable through Xbox Live Arcade, Released August 2, 2006)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (SNES)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (DOS - US release)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Panasonic 3DO)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (DOS, Amiga, Amiga CD32)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (PlayStation2 - part of Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo/ Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Xbox - part of Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2)
Super Street Fighter II X Grand Master Challenge for Matching Service (Sega Dreamcast - Japan only) - First fighting game with online play
Super Street Fighter II Turbo Revival / Super Street Fighter II X Revival (Game Boy Advance)
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition (PlayStation 2 - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition (Xbox - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
A pinball game titled Street Fighter II
A card game titled Street Fighter II - World Warriors Card Game
An LCD game titled Street Fighter II
A board game titled Street Fighter II
A competitive spinning-top game similar to that of Beyblade titled Spin Fighters.
A slot machine titled "Street Fighter II"
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (Game Boy Color)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams (DOS - US release)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (Sega Saturn)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (SNES)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (Sega Saturn)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 (DOS - US release)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold / Street Fighter Zero 2' (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold / Street Fighter Zero 2' (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 - Saikyou-ryuu Dojo (Sega Dreamcast) - Online play
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Zero 3 (Sega Saturn - Japan only)
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper (Game Boy Advance)
Street Fighter Zero Double Upper / Street Fighter Alpha 3 Max (PSP)
Street Fighter Zero 2 Arrange
Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha Arrange
Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper
Hyper Street Fighter Zero
Street Fighter III: New Generation (Sega Dreamcast - part of Street Fighter III: Double Impact)
Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact - Giant Attack
Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact - Giant Attack (Sega Dreamcast - part of Street Fighter III: Double Impact)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (Sega Dreamcast)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (PlayStation 2 - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (PlayStation 2 - Japan release only)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (Xbox - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Street Fighter EX
Street Fighter EX +
Street Fighter EX + ?
Street Fighter EX 2
Street Fighter EX 2 Plus
Street Fighter EX 3

And let's not be forgetting the Puzzle Fighters, the Vs. games and the HD "remixes" on the 360.

So, uh, yeah...

bdh.gif

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterApril 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R Because quarter-circles are sooooooooooo hard. Don't be retarded.


Yes, because all the cool kids hit back, back, toward, low kick, up, high kick, low punch, toward, down-toward, down, low kick when they want to make their character throw a fireball.

And then there's the fact that the series has seen more milking than the entire state of Wisconsin and the practice of Lactophilia since its inception in ancient Rome, combined.

*ahem*

Street Fighter
Fighting Street (Turbo CD)
Street Fighter (ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Street Fighter II (Nintendo Game Boy - this version combined elements from the first 4 versions of SFII )
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II - The World Warrior (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (TurboGrafx-16 - Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (SNES - part of Street Fighter II Turbo - Hyper Fighting)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (Mega Drive/Genesis - part of Street Fighter II' - Special Champion Edition)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II' (Sega Master System)
Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' Turbo / Street Fighter II' - Hyper Fighting
Street Fighter II Turbo - Hyper Fighting (SNES)
Street Fighter II' - Special Champion Edition / Street Fighter II' Plus (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
Street Fighter II' Turbo / Street Fighter II' - Hyper Fighting (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2)
Street Fighter II' Turbo - Hyper Fighting (Sega Saturn - part of Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters, Japanese release)
Street Fighter II' Turbo - Hyper Fighting (Xbox 360 - downloadable through Xbox Live Arcade, Released August 2, 2006)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (SNES)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
Super Street Fighter II - The New Challengers (DOS - US release)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Panasonic 3DO)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (DOS, Amiga, Amiga CD32)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo / Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (PlayStation2 - part of Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2)
Super Street Fighter II Turbo/ Super Street Fighter II X - Grand Master Challenge (Xbox - part of Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2)
Super Street Fighter II X Grand Master Challenge for Matching Service (Sega Dreamcast - Japan only) - First fighting game with online play
Super Street Fighter II Turbo Revival / Super Street Fighter II X Revival (Game Boy Advance)
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition (PlayStation 2 - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition (Xbox - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
A pinball game titled Street Fighter II
A card game titled Street Fighter II - World Warriors Card Game
An LCD game titled Street Fighter II
A board game titled Street Fighter II
A competitive spinning-top game similar to that of Beyblade titled Spin Fighters.
A slot machine titled "Street Fighter II"
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (Game Boy Color)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams (DOS - US release)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Alpha - Warriors' Dreams / Street Fighter Zero (Sega Saturn)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (SNES)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2 (Sega Saturn)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 (DOS - US release)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold / Street Fighter Zero 2' (Sega Saturn - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold / Street Fighter Zero 2' (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection)
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 - Saikyou-ryuu Dojo (Sega Dreamcast) - Online play
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 (PlayStation)
Street Fighter Zero 3 (Sega Saturn - Japan only)
Street Fighter Alpha 3 / Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper (Game Boy Advance)
Street Fighter Zero Double Upper / Street Fighter Alpha 3 Max (PSP)
Street Fighter Zero 2 Arrange
Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha Arrange
Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper
Hyper Street Fighter Zero
Street Fighter III: New Generation (Sega Dreamcast - part of Street Fighter III: Double Impact)
Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact - Giant Attack
Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact - Giant Attack (Sega Dreamcast - part of Street Fighter III: Double Impact)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (Sega Dreamcast)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (PlayStation 2 - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (PlayStation 2 - Japan release only)
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future (Xbox - part of Street Fighter Anniversary Collection)
Street Fighter EX
Street Fighter EX +
Street Fighter EX + ?
Street Fighter EX 2
Street Fighter EX 2 Plus
Street Fighter EX 3

And let's not be forgetting the Puzzle Fighters, the Vs. games and the HD "remixes" on the 360.

So, uh, yeah...

bdh.gif


WOW...

As much as I enjoy the Street Fighter series I agree that its been milked to death.

SNK may release a new KoF every year, but at least they put an effort into making them.

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
Because quarter-circles are sooooooooooo hard. Don't be retarded.


Umm... They ARE. I'm serious. I HATE traditional fighters and haven't touched one ever since the SNES days. They absolutely, hands-down-SUCK. One of my most hated genres for their stubborn entrenchment in non-innovation and pig-headed hardcoreness in the face of a PERFECT opportunity to innovate and convey brilliantly fresh ideas on motion and grace...

Fighting games are one of the BIGGEST opportunities for games to become artful and embody something larger and more beautiful... and therefore also one of gaming's biggest failures.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Bill AurionApril 29, 2007

All Ty plays are fighting games and rhythm games... =3

(Super Paper Mario is crying...)

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorApril 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

And let's not be forgetting the Puzzle Fighters, the Vs. games and the HD "remixes" on the 360.


Don't forget the movies, the anime, the comics and the action figures (including the GI Joe ones)...

Smash_BrotherApril 29, 2007

D'oh, you're right, UB.

Raul Julia's last movie. face-icon-small-frown.gif

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterApril 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
D'oh, you're right, UB.

Raul Julia's last movie. face-icon-small-frown.gif


Slightly off topic, but I never knew that he was Puertorican until they did a special segment on the Addams Family movie on the local news.

Yeah it sucks that the SF movie was one of his last movies (I checked his filmography and they list "Down came the black bird" as being his true last film).

Speaking of which Ming-na played Chun-Li in the movie. Needless to say her luck changed after the movie (she went on to appear in ER and did the voice of Mulan for Disney and Aki Ross for Square).

NephilimApril 29, 2007

Considering how poor the alpha, street fighter 3, EX people are
Im suprised people want new characters, esp. since they had to rerelease the above games with orginal characters just to keep fans happy (2nd/3rd strike, plus editions, gold edition)

S-U-P-E-RTy Shughart, Staff AlumnusApril 30, 2007

There's a difference between milking a franchise and it being popular enough to be ported to everything and re-released regularly face-icon-small-cool.gif

Smash_BrotherApril 30, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
There's a difference between milking a franchise and it being popular enough to be ported to everything and re-released regularly face-icon-small-cool.gif


If I was a SF fan, I'd tell myself that so I could sleep at night, too.

Ian SaneApril 30, 2007

Part of the design of a fighting game like Street Fighter is to make it so it's not just about when to do what move and that the more damaging moves require skill to accomplish. In SSB it takes no really effort to pull of a special move. Now some people like that because they just want to do the move. But when you have to enter a button combination to do that move it means you might f*ck it up. It takes practice to pull off the best moves at a moments notice. The game rewards dedication.

Maybe you like SSB's method better and that's okay. But Street Fighter and games like it have merit. If you don't like it because it's too difficult to do the moves it just means you suck at it.

I will admit though that Capcom milks Street Fighter too much. But then they're Capcom. They milk EVERYTHING.

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterApril 30, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Part of the design of a fighting game like Street Fighter is to make it so it's not just about when to do what move and that the more damaging moves require skill to accomplish. In SSB it takes no really effort to pull of a special move. Now some people like that because they just want to do the move. But when you have to enter a button combination to do that move it means you might f*ck it up. It takes practice to pull off the best moves at a moments notice. The game rewards dedication.

Maybe you like SSB's method better and that's okay. But Street Fighter and games like it have merit. If you don't like it because it's too difficult to do the moves it just means you suck at it.

I will admit though that Capcom milks Street Fighter too much. But then they're Capcom. They milk EVERYTHING.


Yeah, but SSB is not without its depth either.

Its true that the special moves are there and easy to pull off, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any strategy involved. I've seen my share of crazy and extended SSB matches where the players are really skilled. Many a time the matches can get heated and even a small mistake can cost you the whole match.

So in all fairness, both types of engines have their strengths and weaknesses and there will be someone who will understand them and master them to perfect. So its unfair to put down a SF or SSB simply because you don't see the logic behind their engines.

I think that what he means is that in SSB games, you spend your time learning the effects and characteristics of all the different moves and characters, whereas in Street Fighter, you spend a much larger amount of time learning how to perform moves. In this sense, the move assignments in Smash Bros. is much more effective. Past that, they each have a unique combo and physics system, and both have their merits, but if you really want to enjoy Street Fighter-type games, you have to spend time identifying how to do moves with any character you have, which, taking that time to learn may deter people from playing the game.

Smash_BrotherApril 30, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Part of the design of a fighting game like Street Fighter is to make it so it's not just about when to do what move and that the more damaging moves require skill to accomplish. In SSB it takes no really effort to pull of a special move.


There's a difference between "pulling off the move" and "using the right move at the right time to decimate your opponent". Any idiot can mash the B-button for Falcon punches, just as any fool can C-stick with Marth.

However, it's an entirely different player who can successfully manipulate not only the basic physics engine of the game but also the constantly changing physics of their opponents as they deal damage to them. 0% combos begin with an opponent who is essentially very heavy but gradually becomes lighter and lighter as you continue to damage them. The good player is the one who knows that he/she can grab their Fox-using opponent with Marth and slam them on the ground at 20% to reach the 30% mark which will cause them to bounce just far enough away for a follow-up smash attack to land with the tip of Marth's sword and thus do the most damage.

The physics engine of SSB is what makes the game so great, and it's something the SF series simply cannot touch. In SF, your opponent is either going to be directly in front of you, directly above you in some manner of jump or below you as you leap at them. That's it.

SSB takes into account not only the location of the opponent when compared to their attacker but also the angle, timing and position of the attack at the point of impact, not to mention many moves which have stronger and weaker contact points (ex: Zelda's midair toward+A, Marth's forward smash attack).

Yes, I'm aware SF has similar situations, but in SSB, staying alive is not dependent on not getting hit so much as not allowing your opponent to land a critical blow, nor allowing them to prevent you from getting back to the stage after being knocked off.

SF used the same basic premise of "hit them until they die" via a finite amount of "health" each player is given at the beginning of the game that games have been using for ages. In that sense, it's a resource-management fighter more than a true replication of a combat scenario, but realism isn't the goal here. The goal is fun.

Is it FUN to memorize a series of commands which will cause a player unit to execute a specific maneuver within a mundane, closed arena? I don't think so. I didn't experience any shred of enjoyment while sitting there memorizing useless knowledge for tests in grade school so I fail to see why I should suddenly get excited at the notion of memorizing a series of button presses to make one character attack the other. Mind you, I don't claim to be very good at either game, but I definitely have a great deal more fun with SSB than I ever did with SF.

I agree with Kairon: SF is a game which literally thrives on those who play it being proud of the amount of masochism involved in being good at the game. It's like emos being proud of their arm scars from self-inflicted wounds because there was pain involved. Last I checked, emos don't deserve praise for suffering through self-inflicted pain and neither do bratty SF players, quick to dismiss people who point out the faults of the game by saying things like, "You must suck at it. LOL!!!"

And for those who would argue that SF is better because it's the one of the first fighting games, ask yourself this: is DOS Microsoft's best operating system because it was the "first"? Are 200 baud modems the best methods to connect to the internet because they were the "first"? Is "Asteroids" the best 2D shooter because it was the "first"?

Of COURSE not, just as SF is FAR from the best fighting game because, long after its inception, other games have done it infinitely better than they have, hence why Capcom's relentless milking of the franchise is so deplorable.

One could say that the amount of discipline it takes to know that a fox at 20% damage can be thrown by Marth for ten more damage, and then hit successively by the tip of his sword for a nice combo, along with all similar information, is similar to knowing the ins and outs of performing moves in street fighter. When it boils down to it, though, what I think puts Smash Brothers over a traditional fighter is the ease of use, allowing players to switch characters and not lose much of what they learned in previous battles, and the traditional fighter gives too little to learning on a game by game basis, and too much for single-player combo memorization.

When you throw out all these facts about the exact right time to choose when to do certain attacks for certain exact situations, you almost turn Smash Bros. into the same thing. The reality is, with Smash Bros., you have to acknowledge the freedoms both players are allowed in movement and attacking. Then you have to see that for casual players, there's any number of possible strategies available to the player, something the traditional fighters don't offer. That's where SSB's strength is. Anyone can pick it up, and do almost anything, and be much more successful, compared to the playability in a traditional fighter.

Smash_BrotherApril 30, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
One could say that the amount of discipline it takes to know that a fox at 20% damage can be thrown by Marth for ten more damage, and then hit successively by the tip of his sword for a nice combo, along with all similar information, is similar to knowing the ins and outs of performing moves in street fighter. When it boils down to it, though, what I think puts Smash Brothers over a traditional fighter is the ease of use, allowing players to switch characters and not lose much of what they learned in previous battles, and the traditional fighter gives too little to learning on a game by game basis, and too much for single-player combo memorization.


Agreed, but my point is that the depth of SSB, contrary to what SF players would like to think, is easily on par with all equations factored in.

Ian SaneApril 30, 2007

"There's a difference between 'pulling off the move' and 'using the right move at the right time to decimate your opponent'. Any idiot can mash the B-button for Falcon punches, just as any fool can C-stick with Marth."

I didn't say there wasn't a difference. I'm just saying that with SSB I can figure out each special move about ten seconds after selecting a character for the first time. So there is no skill required in pulling off the move itself. Street Fighter and games like it add an extra layer by not just having special moves and requiring one to do the right moves at the right time but also having a skill requirement for pulling off the moves in the first place. If I'm Ryu I can throw a fireball but what if someone jumps it. Ideally a Dragon Punch if timed right would be really effective and would allow me to defend myself from their attack. But what if I screw up the command for the Dragon Punch in the heat of the moment? Then I'm f*cked and my opponent nails me with a jump kick and starts pulling off a combo. In SSB that possibility of me not doing the move correctly is greatly diminished. If I have the timing in SSB I'm set. In Street Fighter I'm not quite. There's something else I have to do right.

I'm not saying SSB doesn't have depth as well. It just doesn't require as much from the player to master as most fighting games with more complicated controls.

Plus no one was all "fighting games are too complicated" until Nintendo f*cked up on the N64 and certain genres were absent. Nintendo didn't have fighting games so a large portion of their fans decided that fighting games were crap and then once Nintendo released their own fighting game all fighting games that didn't play like it were crap. All the N64 owners who had a SNES were loving the f*ck out of Street Fighter II. It's the same with RPGs. They became crappy once Nintendo didn't have them and the fans had to convince themselves that that which they were deprived of was no good in the first place.

First person shooters also were not crap on the N64 but once the Xbox got all the FPS action and the Cube didn't then suddenly "FPS SUCKS! HALO IS TEH LAMERZ!" Rare sucks now that we don't have them anymore. Capcom and Konami suck when they don't support Nintendo but kick ass when they do. Online sucked when the Cube didn't have it but now that the Wii and DS do it's the best thing ever.

Now that's a little inaccurate, to say the least, Ian. You know what the N64 didn't have? 2D Platformers, fighters, and RPGs. Guess what gamers who liked those genres did. Most of them bought a PS, including me, when they got cheap. The same happened with the PS2 or Xbox, and whatever genre the player felt the Cube missed. Some people don't like FPSes. I don't, so I never bought Goldeneye or Perfect Dark. I bought one James Bond game on the Cube, just so I would have one, but I barely ever played it, and when I did, it was at a guest's request.

When gamers aren't happy with their games, they usually do something about it, typically buying another system. There are two series of fighting games I love, and I was very fortunate that both appeared on the Cube. I like Smash Bros. and Bloody Roar, because they are very fast paced, and the techniques for moves are a little bit easier.

I've tried playing Street Fighter, but I can't for very long. I've tried Tekken, SNK-based fighters, and just about everything in-between. I enjoyed Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 enough to pick it up for the DC. I've played Goldeneye, Halo, and several other FPSes, none of which I favored enough to pick up, so I don't own an Xbox. I like RPGs, so I got a Playstation soon after I finished Quest 64 and realized that was about it for N64 RPGs.

My point is that very few people live in that reality where their opinion changes that radically when Nintendo shifts direction. Most of them go to an alternative if they can afford it. If they can't, they sell their Nintendo system, and move to the one that has the games they like. Sales certainly indicate this is true, otherwise, Nintendo would have remained the leader of the pack in the last two generations.

Smash_BrotherApril 30, 2007

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane Plus no one was all "fighting games are too complicated" until Nintendo f*cked up on the N64 and certain genres were absent. Nintendo didn't have fighting games so a large portion of their fans decided that fighting games were crap and then once Nintendo released their own fighting game all fighting games that didn't play like it were crap. All the N64 owners who had a SNES were loving the f*ck out of Street Fighter II. It's the same with RPGs. They became crappy once Nintendo didn't have them and the fans had to convince themselves that that which they were deprived of was no good in the first place.


Uhh...

tinfoilhat.jpg

Seriously, that's a pretty far-fetched conspiracy theory.

First of all, there WERE fighting games on the N64. I remember renting a few. Second, when I played SSB, this was already after having played the SF, SNK, Marvel, etc. fighting games. I formed the opinion that fighting games were trash LONG before I ever played SSB, which is why I was actually hesitant to play SSB in the first place: I saw it in an EB kiosk and my immediate reaction was "Hmm, Nintendo made a fighting game starring their characters. Weak." Third, I didn't know who a lot of the characters in SSB WERE, since I had been a Sega kid until the N64 and Link was the only character I really knew from my recent stint with OoT, so my love of Nintendo didn't play into it since I didn't yet HAVE any real Nintendo love.

Amodaus1May 01, 2007

Smash_brother is right in his point about Melee being at the same level of depth as Street Fighter (or other fighters), that why there are tourny's / tiers ect.. ect...

What smash_brother has wrong is his complaint about complex inputs in street fighter being stupid, while NOT acknowleging the fact that to be good in melee you must know the ins and outs of the Short hop/ Shuffle/ Wave dash / L-cancel / Spike cancel / ect.. ect...

So while in Melee your not looking for specific frames to cancel into your super/ special, or moves with enough lag to buffer into that 360 grapple, what you are doing is shifting that finger dexterity over to hiting L right as link's sword plants into the floor, or wavedashing to cancel out of foxes reflector so you can score the C-stick up kick on the stunned opponent. I have always compared that last example to super canceling in Street fighter, its the same premise.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

Seriously, that's a pretty far-fetched conspiracy theory.



Yeah, seriously IanSane. Way to assume that I formed my opinion on Street Fighter about 4-6 years AFTER I played it.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

ShyGuyMay 01, 2007

SFII is sacred to Ian. That' why he wants six face buttons on all controllers. face-icon-small-wink.gif

SheckyMay 01, 2007

Before this started to spiral out of control... both parties had valid points.

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Smash_brother is right in his point about Melee being at the same level of depth as Street Fighter (or other fighters), that why there are tourny's / tiers ect.. ect...

What smash_brother has wrong is his complaint about complex inputs in street fighter being stupid, while NOT acknowleging the fact that to be good in melee you must know the ins and outs of the Short hop/ Shuffle/ Wave dash / L-cancel / Spike cancel / ect.. ect...

So while in Melee your not looking for specific frames to cancel into your super/ special, or moves with enough lag to buffer into that 360 grapple, what you are doing is shifting that finger dexterity over to hiting L right as link's sword plants into the floor, or wavedashing to cancel out of foxes reflector so you can score the C-stick up kick on the stunned opponent. I have always compared that last example to super canceling in Street fighter, its the same premise.




I disagree. There is much less hardcore-ness to dig through in order to become baseline competent in Smash Bros. This turns the game into a more cerebral battle much faster, and makes it infinitely more accessible to newbies, casuals, and interested parties who would otherwise be driven away(i.e. me, who likes fighting games but can't keep up with them... I'm actually mulling over my first fighting game purchase EVAR soon: Mortal Kombat for the Wii).

Not to mention Smash's 4-player combat changes EVERYTHING because of the added randomness, politicking, and more factors to take into consideration. PLUS how items (or a lack thereof) add yet ANOTHER layer of complexity above and beyond what you ALREADY have.



~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Smash_BrotherMay 01, 2007

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1 What smash_brother has wrong is his complaint about complex inputs in street fighter being stupid, while NOT acknowleging the fact that to be good in melee you must know the ins and outs of the Short hop/ Shuffle/ Wave dash / L-cancel / Spike cancel / ect.. ect...


I'm not trying to say that they're "stupid", just that SSB's method of simpler controls makes for an overall better experience and a game which is therefore capable of reaching a greater number of players via its ease of use.

Both games will "separate the men from the boys" at their highest level, so to speak.

But only SSB can give newer players an easier learning curve so the game isn't a near-immediate turn off to them, hence why it is a superior game in my eyes.

I don't care if other people like it. I just don't intend to allow any of the typical "It's harder so it's better and so am I" SF machismo BS float by without snuffing it out.

I admit, though, that I did start the argument after seeing SSB compared to SF...

Amodaus1May 01, 2007

You do have your point, but i was making a direct comparision to the dexterity and complexity involved in both games. They are not so un-alike, they are very similar. For arguements sake, I could say that one doesn't not need to use special's or supers in Street Fighter, you could just use strings instead of combos, and juggling can still take place. I know when i started playing SF2 I would only use Hard kicks and punches, usually the hard jump kick and sweep. Then when you learn quater circle foward for the first time, its all about the spam.

One must remember that SF 2, back when it was released, was accepted widely by the casual gamer, in fact it was a rage. So while many of you complain of its complexity and difficulty as an effect to garner intrest of the newbies and non-gaming inclined, this is a somewhat unfounded and highly flawed arguement, as many people were already lured in by Street fighter 2. Mario saved the console buisness, but Street Fighter saved the arcade world for a long period of time.

Regardless, both games require you to learn. Street fighter and the traditional fighters it spawned require you to know setups/ cancels / and juggles just like Smash brothers. The main difference is in Street fighter canceling and Just Framing (Parry's for SF3 include this) are more ephasized and in smash is juggling and setup (spiking, using throws for juggles, chain grabs on specific characters... DK you big monkey)


(Note I only intend this for a 1 on 1 comparision, if you want to include 4 man melee, then if find the arguement moot, mainly because SF is strickly 1v1, and its not fair to compair outside the games parameters.)

Smash_BrotherMay 01, 2007

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
You do have your point, but i was making a direct comparision to the dexterity and complexity involved in both games. They are not so un-alike, they are very similar. For arguements sake, I could say that one doesn't not need to use special's or supers in Street Fighter, you could just use strings instead of combos, and juggling can still take place. I know when i started playing SF2 I would only use Hard kicks and punches, usually the hard jump kick and sweep. Then when you learn quater circle foward for the first time, its all about the spam.


Commands in SSB are easier to input and thus make the game more approachable to new players.

SSB was the closest Nintendo could really get to a "non-gamer" fighting game because anyone could, at the least, get their character to perform the basic moves necessary for success.

If both games were a rollercoaster ride, SF required you to be 6 feet tall while SSB could accommodate people of any height. You needed to ride both multiple times to get the hang of them, but the SSB coaster could already reach a broader audience simply because the SF coaster asked far more of players just to get into it.

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