Nice blog, Kai.

I'd like to think that NWR is a collective voice of sorts, but we aren't an aggregator site so we tend to get lost in the overall noise.  I think that game makers that mine our readerbase (Jesse at Medaverse, Pearl Harbor Trilogy folks) find that we're a really good untapped resource, though.

Really good post. Would read again.

Yes, but where are all the hot soccer moms?

We can't just assume that Wii "gamers" comprise the majority. Gamers being in the traditional sense of the word. Does the Wii sell the most? Yes. Does the Wii sell the most software? Yes. Are there more Wii owners than HD console owners that would describe themselves as gamers? Weeelll. Do the majority of Wii owners have a deep investment in the future of software on the system? No.

I don't want to come off as a troll, but I think the notion that there is no open dialogue through which Wii owners' voices can be heard is silly. I would argue that the store shelves are the plainest way to communicate exactly what Wii owners want. People vote with their dollars, and by in large not in the sense that I will buy game A simply because I support its idea, but rather in the sense that I will buy game A because I want it or it appeals to me in some way.

But, you say, many people blindly buy Wii games. The kind of voice you say Wii owners need, they already have. Sites like NWR are the internet "haunts" but surely the Wii has been spoken about in hundreds of popular web venues, I have seen plenty of Wii TV ads, and the Wii has most certainly graced the cover of many a magazine. This is indeed partially how the Wii achieved such mainstream success.

The Wii does have a voice, and it is the voice of mainstream consumers that will buy what they see or hear about because it looks fun or healthy. They simply are not preoccupied with what comes next, or if the next zelda game uses motion plus, or if MadWorld succeeds, or if Red Steel 2 turns out to be good. The core gamer has a voice entirely separate from the larger voice of Wii. Wii has become a household word, it has penetrated the market, it just hasn't dominated the mindshare.

When cooking spaghetti, you can take a noodle and throw it against the wall to see if it sticks. If it does, your pasta is ready. If not, let it boil longer.

I prefer to simply remove one noodle, cut it open and examine the cross-section. If there's still a different color in the middle, it isn't done yet. The cooking, and the color, has to be even all the way to the core of the noodle.

I agree that consumer purchases speak for themselves, but that's communication after the fact, and it's a messy way to get data, rife with complicating factors and the potential to "learn the wrong lesson." Not to mention, it's expensive for game makers.

As for Wii's presence in media outlets, I think these are doing a better and better job, but I don't know if they support a consistent and evolving dialogue over what Wii owners want and value. Long-term communication and community will be invaluable for game makers to make games that have better chances of being successful.

But if Wii games are outselling other console games I am not sure what you are upset about. It is not a crapshot when guessing what will succeed on Wii. Sure, carnival games surprised us all (though one would expect at least one game like that to do well), but when it comes down to it are you really genuinely surprised with the consistent top sellers on Wii? Wii Sports, Wii Play, Mario Kart Wii, NSMB Wii, Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit Plus. What sells the most? First Party Nintendo games that are backed with their wonderful marketing strategies.

What I was trying to get at in my previous statement is that the only people that are truly interested in letting publishers know what they want outside of purchasing are the core gamers of which there are an insignificant amount on wii. Who do you think fills out Club Nintendo Surveys? It sure as hell isn't Daddy, Mommy, Billy (maybe Billy) or Sarah. For the time being, developers that seek success try and riff off of the obviously flourishing first party titles (see: EA Sports active) and some hit while most don't. The problem is that Wii gamers are getting what they want already, but the core Wii gamers aren't. Two different things.

Not if the options they want aren't represented.

supports above comment with obligatory link to 3rd Party Wall of Shame

I agree with everything you're saying Greybrick. But I'm actually not talking about core vs. casual or third party vs. first party. I'm not trying to argue that we are, or aren't, getting games that we do, or don't want. (In fact, some could say that as a Wii gamer I'm getting PLENTY of games I want....)

Instead, I'm just talking about the Wii audience being able to make their opinions and feedback known, and for game makers to be able to listen to them. And I do mean that in a context beyond the vocal core gamers. I mean that for everyone in the Wii consumer base. They ALL deserve a voice, some way to share their values, and that will aid better game making efforts in the future.

Until then, there's a skewed and incomplete discussion about what gaming means to millions of people out there.

I always just try a strand of spaghetti to see if it's ready....

The problem, if you can call this a problem, is that Nintendo has reached such a vast audience with the Wii that it's impossible for it to be represented by one voice. The needs of ours are different from the needs of someone who only bought the Wii for Wii Sports and Wii Fit and maybe one or two other games, which are different from those of core gamers who only bought the Wii for Nintendo's games and have no interest in anything else. Things that are important to some of us aren't important to others, and it's hard to find a lot of common ground.

Is Nintendo sharing their survey data with 3rd party developers? Between Wii recommendations, Nintendo Club memberships, and other efforts at surveying, I wonder how close Nintendo holds these cards to their chest.

It reminds me a lot of the 3rd party complaints with the Gamecube. Does Nintendo still not make enough efforts to support 3rd party development on their hardware with this new generation? Does Nintendo even care?

I can't stop wondering about the differences in how distribution is handled between the consistent top selling 1st party games like Mario Kart, and potential 3rd party hits that slip by, like GTA: Chinatown Wars. What is the disconnect?

The Nintendo channel has incredibly valuable data on all games.  The problem is that it is only relevant to those players who use the Nintendo Channel.  That number is probably significantly smaller than the Wii consoles in the wild.

I think this speaks directly to greybrick's point.  It's worth considering that the majority of Wii owners couldn't be bothered to speak their voice regardless of the venue.  If this is the case, there is nothing anyone can really do about it.  It is one of the few problems with Nintendo's broad market success.  The only statistical indicator that can get at those mute owners is the NPDs.  What do they show? That most people just take the safe bet and buy games that have the word "Wii" in them, which is first party titles.

We also need to consider the possibility that even if all those mute owners did find a place to speak their voice, the result wouldn't be the one that members of this forum want.  Publishers could very well discover that their most financially viable decision is to make as many mini-game collections that feature popular licensed characters as possible.  One of the many reasons 360 and PS3 get more high budget traditional third party titles is that the target audience of such games makes up a larger percentage of the consoles market share.

This is nothing new for Nintendo.  When the NES achieved mass market success, one of the reasons was their hard stance against titles that may not be considered family friendly.  The Genesis got the version of Mortal Kombat with red blood, remember?  And there was a large portion of Nintendo players that put all of their blame on the game developer because they didn't understand the reason behind the decision.

I think it's pretty clear that the kinds of games that would NOT make this forum's asinine "third party wall of shame" would not ever be commercially viable on the Wii.  They would not sell enough to account for their massive budget.

That's one of the reasons why Wii won't ever be a lead console for a game like Modern Warfare 2 and anyone who longs for that is just setting themselves up for disappointment.

I know that you weren't making the core vs. casual argument, I brought that  in. My point being that as a core gamer, you care about this and see it as a problem. I don't think the millions others out there care to share their values as much as you assume they would. My mom, who will casually play games, could care less if "there's a skewed and incomplete discussion about what gaming means to millions." She, like most Wii consumers, only cares about what comes next and that is only after it pops up in one of her other media forms.

Did you really throw pasta on the wall as an illustration for us?

Radio Free Nintendo is our voice. Which thinking about that now, I find it interesting that it is the only Nintendo centric podcast worth listening to. However, there are dozens of quality HD Twins podcasts to listen to. Is this a reflection of where the core market resides?  Possibly.

Correction, it wasn't. NoA's censorship at the time caused this to happen. After the backlash that NoA received, ERSB was founded.

Here's my voice: no more Petz or Imagine! ___ games, Wii Sports knock-offs, or games based on Barbie, Bratz Shrek, Spongebob, or M&M's; not now, not in the future, not for my neighbor's autistic kid, not for Wii 2, not ever. I will never buy these games. I expect Game Cube level graphics.

If you think my opinion doesn't matter and will never be profitable on Wii, go to Canada.

Why does Pale so hate the third party wall of shame?

You a**, I feel bad for your neighbor.

You said it for me.

I think you guys missed Kairon's entire point....

what goes around comes around.....

A lot of his blog post was inspired by a discussion with me, where I posited that Wii owners don't have the traditional consumer subculture as that of PS360 and thus it is difficult for game developers to provide appropriate quality products.

What insanolord said earlier in this thread is true: the Wii audience is very new and encompasses many differing interests. However, "impossible" isn't in the entrepeneur vocabulary. ;) I think someone will eventually "tap into" the Wii zeitgeist and form a more cohesive (if not respected) Nintendo identity. As I implied in my earlier "moms" comment, you should remember that NWR, as "professional" and "reasoned" as its community may ever claim to be, is but an infinitesimal slice of the total Nintendo consumer base.

Don't alienate them; champion them! Right now, developers don't respect them, other gamers don't respect them... all because no one understands them, and there's no channel through which they can be understood. They might not even know they have a voice to be heard.

I think Wii owners have plenty to tap into. I don't really agree with Kairon's point but I understand it.

EDIT:

I guess I should elaborate. Wii owners have the most insane fans and the "hardest of hardcore" gamers. They are called Nintendo fans and we have been here through generation after generation. There are networks, sites, magazines, podcasts, groups, and more all dedicated to this fandom. Wii owners don't just include Nintendo fans, of course, but anyone who loves their Wii system enough to look for a group of other Wii owners can easily find one.

I know it wasn't Kairon's intent to give developers an excuse as to why it is so hard to sell a game on the Wii (which I still don't believe). He merely wanted to point out the fact that maybe, just maybe if Wii owners could be heard then it wouldn't be so difficult. But I think his main argument is flawed....that we are silent. I actually believe that we are the loudest and getting louder. There are more and more of us everyday and more and more of us becoming active fans. Why else do you think only Nintendo games sell? It is because they are doing a great job of turning new gamers into Nintendo fans.

If developers really wanted to know what we like, they wouldn't look at "trends" or "demographics" but facebook and forums. Anyone with a brain can put their thumb on the pulse of Wii owners, but it seems to elude developers.

But we don't necessarily want the Wii to be the lead console, but it has been proven with World at War that a decent Wii version can release with the other versions and Modern Warfare Reflex proves that even 'for HD' games can be made to work and work well on Wii. And these titles sell.  No reason we can't see ports in the same launch window as the HD versions and the fact they do not do it is what is most frustrating.

Maybe, but it isn't as affordable as a port between PS3 and 360 for a developer to do it, which in itself isn't very affordable.

How is Reflex performing?

It passed half a million sales a while ago last I heard. Can't expect too much from it since it's a late inferior port that costs WAY more than the original version costs now (Sony would have demanded exclusive content to make up for the delay).

"Sony would have demanded exclusive content to make up for the delay)."

Nintendo is just happy we got the game, and with all the content.

NPD confirmed more than 500k a while ago and according to VG Chartz its around 880k.

I think we are, as a fanbase, getting louder, more proactive, and involved Kashogi. Definitely a lot of what you say is true.

It's simply that I believe that, despite our own personal examples, there are still large segments of the Wii owner community that aren't being empowered to speak like we already are, and consequently aren't being listened to. And, because of that, game makers will have extra difficulty in making relevant and successful games because they're used to relying on forms of consumer feedback and connection that aren't as relevant.

But I guess we're not really arguing anyway, just both pointing out how we have different conclusions.

Long time lurker, rare poster... and maybe last time as well.

This is one of the dumbest things I think I have ever heard.

Wii gamers need a voice? Since when? Since when does any console need a voice any louder than the market?

I don't remember gamers needing a voice during the 8bit generation or the 16bit generation or the 32/64bit generation. And the voice this generation was just beginning to form last generation. Where is this so-called voice that the other consoles have that the Wii does not? Or are you talking about the rabbit console fanboys who fall over themselves to listen to every little soundbite that they can find? Because, believe it or not, 3rd parties don't listen to that voice at all. If they did, they'd all be out of business before this generation is over.

If you don't know there's a voice, then you haven't been lurking enough.

There is no voice that matters anywhere near as much as the market. Everything else is superfluous... and ego.

And as for how long I've been lurking here... I won't even dignify that with a response.

I think that most tellingly, Nintendo GAVE the console market its voice in the 8-bit age. More than merely reinvigorating the U.S. console market, they actively created and united a consumer culture, especially around the print magazine Nintendo Power. After that, the following generations basically built from and adapted the existing methods of audience connection without needing to re-invent the wheel as much as Nintendo did in the 1980's.

With the Wii bringing about so much change, and in some ways hearkening back to the NES in how it redefines the people who play videogames, I think finding a way to make the voice of the audience more inclusive and more cohesive would be a great help.

Actually, there are those on the forum who would argue that that is already happening...

The market is a SPECTACULAR voice, I agree. But it's after the fact. It takes a long time, money, and effort to learn its lessons.

Oh, it's hard to argue with the market showing what doesn't work, sure, but the market is like hindsight. It's always 20/20. And frankly, after three years of "20/20", I'm sure we're all ready for something a little more proactive.

Nintendo is following the exact same pattern that you said they followed back with the NES. Why is it so hard for 3rd parties to see that and follow suit? Nintendo has laid out the Wii market for them. They either refuse to see it or simply aren't interested. And considering that there was no need to "make the voice of the audience more inclusive and cohesive" then why would you think it would need to now? Besides, it's impossible to do that. No matter what you do you'll never be able to reach enough people and get enough response to actually ferment this "voice" you're on about.

And it will ruin gaming for all. When has listening to a small vocal minority ever been good for the whole? I'm just glad that Nintendo isn't that stupid.

No. Plain and simple no. The market is the only voice of consequence. You may seem to think that there is something else out there but there's not. Yes, there is a voice here and yes, I understand what you are trying to do but it means nothing in the larger picture. You're a whisper in a throng of screaming voices. This "voice" you want, that you want to create, can be little more than that. You will never reach enough people. You will never form a strong enough collective. All you can do is hold on to your little corner of the internet.

And as for 20/20 hindsight. Who would have thought the NES would have taken off let alone completely recreate the video games business in it's image. At the beginning of this generation the Wii was predicted to flop and be Nintendo's last console. Every voice was saying that. Every voice except the one that mattered: The market. The market said nothing. The market showed everything.

All we can ever have is hindsight. Unless you know someone who can predict the future. I don't. No one does.

And the market will go on.

Dude, sorta depressing to have that outlook. T_T

I don't think I can agree to the idea that we should all just throw up our hands and not try to learn, listen to, and understand the market. I don't think anyone will be ever to tell the future, but man... there's a reason that Nintendo's still around after all these years, and there's a reason they're this successful. They try.

The problem is quite frankly that the market is not being listened to, third parties prefer to follow the voices inside their heads. So our main voice is failing. Third parties keep making shovelware despite the market telling them to stop, if anything succeeds they clone it over and over despite sales dropping pretty damn quickly (i.e. the market telling them that the first game is enough). Things that work like RE4 or Red Steel are quietly ignored while failures like Madworld or The Conduit are pointed at as "proof" that the market wants only shovelware.

Madworld & The Conduit were both profitable and Sega was satisfied if not happy with the performance of both of those titles. I also don't think either of those games are shovelware.

You just don't understand how freeing it is to not have to worry about all the little crap that goes on around the internet. All you have to do is buy the games you like and have fun. The problem comes in when you can't have fun because everyone else on the internet is too busy talking about useless things like this. Sure, you can debate the market and discuss trends and whatnot but that's really all that you can do. However that's not all that's going on here. Everyone trying to have their voice be heard, to make their voice the voice of gaming, is permeating into everything and the games are being pushed aside. How about instead we all just have fun. Get over ourselves and have fun.

If you need something to cling to then this. This right here. Cling to this and realize that the real voice of gaming is being ignored and try and help that one to be heard. Please stop distracting people. All you're going to do is hurt the real voice... if anything at all. Most likely you're just going to waste your time which is a pity because it could have been used for something really useful.

KDR_11K is right though, I've seen developers sight those title to try and support the whole games won't sell on Wii argument. It doesn't seem to matter how well Sega feels those games did or whether or not the games are of actual merit, others believe that they should have sold better (whatever that's supposed to mean) and as such they failed in their duty, which apparently was to completely create a PS360 style market on the Wii all by themselves.

The stupidity I see being vomited up by developers in this industry is staggering. Almost as staggering as the amount of useless arguing I see going on on forms such as this one. However, I do have to admit that for the most part this forum does seem to be more civil than most. It's just that the discussions are beginning to go in the wrong direction. Topics like "What Do we want from the wii successor" and "What We want From the Next DS Hand Held" have me very worried. Almost everyone seems to be throwing technology at the problem. I've only seem a handful of people, at that, saying anything about fun games. Hell, saying anything about games at all. If people here had had their way I would never have bought a Wii or a DS.

Gaming is about games first. Not the hardware. Not the grafixz. Not the bluerays. I'd hate to see them die out because people have screwed up priorities.

I should have mentioned that I think Dead Space Extraction would have been a much better example and much more deserving of the ridicule.

And for the record, I agree with you, about the topics and the discussions.
But when talking about hardware successors, I think we all go with the assumptions that there will be more better games. The amount of tech thrown into the system isn't gonna affect how fun a well thought out, designed and programmed game will be, but it doesn't hurt to want some of the latest and greatest that can be afforded to be powering those games if possible.

Hey, don't have to tell me twice! The Wii is, like, the perfect console for me and my current gaming tastes, with everything from We Cheer to No More Heroes, from Wii Music to House of the Dead: Overkill, from Zelda to Mario to everything in between...

I do admit to liking having a more complex relationship to gaming than merely playing fun games but... well, I feel very well squared away in that regard.

Hey! I am an adamant defender of the wall of shame! ... which, uh, can be taken in more ways than one...

I assume the answer to this is yes.

Hehe. I'd love to be able to prove that I'm that dedicated, but it's actually the internet that threw pasta on the wall for me.

you know i have never seen a Conduit or Madworld commercial, i watch a crapload of tv too. According to Peter Main in 2000 Nintendo spends 100s of millions of dollars in marketing. Also, you know i don't think marketing is as expensive as people make it out to be, the girls gone wild company can't be worth nearly as much as most of the big 3rd parties and they have constant advertising.

....at 1 o'clock in the morning...