I dunno how much marketing alone could have helped the Wii's diminishing performance. The lack of games and people getting bored with the waggle gimmick are things that advertising alone really doesn't solve.

I kind of liked some of the commercials they did (e.g. Metroid Other M, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Donkey Kong Country Returns) but I guess they weren't the best in getting people who are not enthusiasts to buy Nintendo's new games.

pushing the Excite games and Battalion Wars would have helped.

In that same vein, I think bringing back Player's Choice would have helped.

Actually, what needs to change are the gamers who buy Nintendo consoles and then only buy 1st party games. This is not Nintendo's fault, its those people. Way too many people on various sites who only want to play Zelda, Mario, Kirby, metroid, etc.

They ignore basically everything that isn't directly from Nintendo. WTF is up with that? Those are the people that hurt the Wii. Nintendo didn't do everything right marketing wise, but the consumer did not help with this bizarre attitude.

Yes. People should have to buy games they don't want to prop up a system. It's entirely their fault for ignoring the stellar lineup of third party software available for the Wii.

Sorry, I buy Nintendo systems for Nintendo games.  I do get the occasional 3rd party game (8/47), but until 3rd parties make games that I want, I'm not going to buy them.  Nintendo has shown, pretty much for three systems now, they can keep me happy being the virtual soul support behind a console.

insert link to Wall of Shame

You're like one of those super picky eaters who only eats macaroni and cheese, hamburgers,  and certain types of pizza, aren't you?

Not at all.  But I won't eat foods I don't like either.

I hope there are downloadable demos on Cafe, to let UncleBob sample some of the tasty morsels available from third parties.

Eh, I really hope that Nintendo isn't putting the blame for the (many) failures of the Wii on the marketing so they don't have to admit they screwed-up in other areas, because sales numbers show that marketing was never really an issue.  Lack of 3rd party software, lack of Nintendo support for their own peripherals (Classic Controller and MotionPlus), and lack of worthwhile software at all for extended periods of time put the Wii where it is.

Honestly the root of the problem is that people only have x amount of times for game so, you want them to be good.  Nintendo games fill that X amount of time and are no brainers on quality.  The core solution is to get more people who have more time for games or go through them faster and are willing to spend to fill their need.  That right their is the definition of Hardcore.  The other is to foster someone else with as stellar of a reputation as say a 2nd party.

I think this is the main problem.

Sony and Microsoft don't have the problem Nintendo has.  If Nintendo releases too many first party games, the third parties complain because they can't handle the competition.  If Nintendo doesn't release enough first party games, then consumers complain that there's not enough out there (see: 3DS).

The "times versus games" argument is where I can agree with the ProDaisy philosophy of console gaming. He contends that trying to take advantage of more than one console per generation deprives the gamer by making them miss out on some of the less high profile but equally entertaining games of their chosen platforms.

I can agree with that.  I missed the hat game in the top 30 DS and its, right up my alley.

Conversely, only owning one console means you miss out on all the great exclusive titles of the other platforms.

I'll tell you right now that Nintendo better be serious about this. The 3DS gives me hope, but for some reason I just can't allow myself to forget the mistakes of the Wii.

#1  Firstly, they expected a gimmick to NOT get old. ALL gimmicks will eventually get old, they are only a way to sell your product to the mass. Once it's sold, you must find a way to make that gimmick actually benefit the experience of your console. Which if you're a Wii owner, you know this was not the case most of the time.

#2 Like this article says, they did not build a strong relationship with with the 3rd party. In this day in age, this is a MUST; they provide new experiences to be had for those looking for games OTHER than the Mario's, and Zelda's out there. Believe it or not Nintendo, as fun as it is, people will eventually get tired of saving Hyrule from Ganon.

#3 This ties in with 3rd party support; 3rd party developers, DO NOT want to develop for last gen hardware. No I don't care about graphics, they do not make a game. But do you really think 3rd party developers want to put in the time and effort, to develop for a console that is essentially GameCube 1.5?

I love you Nintendo, but come on... Step up your game this time around. I'm tired of Microsoft and Sony getting all the 3rd party action.

When I look back on the NES and SNES, two Nintendo consoles that had fantastic third party support, I find that with my favourite games there is a lot of balance between first and third party titles.  But with the N64, Gamecube and Wii, which had very poor third party support, my favourite games were predominantly first party.

This isn't rocket science.  First party games dominate the sales charts on Nintendo consoles because they make up the vast majority of the great games on the system.  Third party games don't sell because they practically don't exist.  The support is so weak that only a handful of third party titles could be considered some of the best releases on the system.

Do you think that Grand Theft Auto on a Nintendo console wouldn't sell because Mario and Zelda would eat into its sales?  We get table scraps from third parties while Sony and MS get the steak.  The DS had good third party support.  Where was every third party whining and complaining about having the compete with Mario on the DS?  Oh that's right, they didn't because they gave it decent support.  What they complain about is how a AAA Mario title outsells their half-assed token effort.  On the Wii, third parties expected us to put up with mediocre efforts.  Why the fuck should we?  I do buy third party games... on my PS3 because that's where the good ones go.

Imagine that there was just one console that had the combined libraries of the PS3, Xbox 360 and Wii.  With that library available to you what third party Wii games would you buy?  Would you buy a scaled down hack job of Dead Rising when the real game is available to you?  Would you buy a waggle-fest Soul Calibur spinoff instead of Soul Calibur IV?  Would you buy an on-rails Dead Space shooter instead of the REAL Dead Space?  You probably wouldn't and that's why those titles sold like shit.  No one wants a good game "by Wii standards" they want a good game period and on the Wii Nintendo was pretty much the only company offering those on a regular basis.

Third parties can handle the competition just fine, they just can't con us and they're mad about that.

I'm surprised to hear ProDaisy has a coherent philosophy for anything.

Few things with this.  Funny you mention GTA on a Nintendo console, then go into talking about Nintendo handhelds without even addressing the GTA title that did show up on Nintendo - Chinatown Wars.  That sold well, didn't it? (heh).

And third parties *have* complained about the competition from first party titles on the DS.  Anyone have any articles handy, or should I go Google a few?

The DS has good third party support?  Name a handful of AAA titles that's been released by third parties in the past year.  Quantity doesn't equal quality and just because Dreamworks is releasing three more movie adaptations this year, it doesn't mean the DS has good support.

But owning all three platforms turns you into a softcore game who only plays "AAA" games like COD, GTA, Halo, and Madden. It's like the only movies you see are Avatar and Transformers.

I need to see if MegaByte can tweak the forum rules so I don't keep seeing the "You need to wait an hour before repeating Karma actions." when I applaud Zap.

Geometry Wars 2 alone is worth more than most of the third party Wii games I own.

The way I see it, you play what you like and if anyone doesn't like that, screw 'em.  I was a Nintendo-exclusive gamer from the time I was 5 on the NES until I was 25 with the Wii.  I got sick of playing pretty much just Nintendo titles (plus, E3 2008 "happened"), so I picked up a PS2 for my 3rd party needs (especially RPGs).  The PS2 had many great old games, but I wanted to play great new games, so I got a PS3.  The 360 got a few great exclusive retail titles, so I got a 360 relatively cheap to enjoy those and the exclusive download titles.

Bottom-line, becoming a multiplatform owner makes everything about specialization.  Each console I own exists for a particular purpose, and I'm satisfied with those consoles fulfilling their allotted roles and providing me with the games I like to play.  I don't have to play crap or pretend that mediocre games are secretly awesome simply because that's all there is, which has been the situation on the Wii.  I really don't see why anyone should be ashamed of that.

The only music I listen to is Lady Gaga and Rebecca Black. Screw any other band, they are all mediocre.

I think the first sentence in Broodwars' post is the key, but he had to go and ruin it by getting all condescending.

Play what you want to play; that's going to be different things for different people. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, you're good.

I reserve the right to recommend good games.

That was three years ago, people seriously need to get over that.

All that third party action doesn't always mean success. Capcom, hint hint.

I have, but it was my reason at the time for going multi-console, a decision I haven't regretted in the least since.

Not even after factoring in recent events?

Nope.  There are just so many more experiences available to you when you have more than one console, and aside from the occasional issue my time with my other two consoles has been great as a whole.

E3 2008 was awesome. If it wasn't for that show, this would have never been made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XR7LaJLLf8

I have no idea why they don't realize that. No games = no sales.

I had just watched that and I forgot just how bad that conference was.

E3 2008 was like a wake up call for Nintendo.  They seemed legitimately surprised and upset that their conference went over so poorly.  If Project Cafe is as core gamer friendly as it is rumoured to be I wouldn't be surprised if E3 2008 inspired that.  In retrospect that was the point where Nintendo became pigeonholed as the casual company.  Core gamers interpreted that E3 showing as Nintendo demonstrating that they only cared about casuals and non-gamers.

But it appears that Nintendo did not want the Wii to be the casual machine and its current image and reputation is largely an accident.  They wanted it to be for everyone but didn't realize that the concessions they made to attract non-gamers turned core gamers off.  The Wii is regarded as a casual console and Iwata didn't want it to be that way and so he looks at the way the system was marketed as a cause for that.  It is not the only cause by a long shot but it did play a part.

Nintendo really did seem bothered after E3 2008 that Wii Music went over like a fart in church.  There was a real "oh shit, this wasn't supposed to happen" vibe coming from them.

The one thing above all else that Nintendo never seems to get is that you can never truly make something for everyone.  On the N64 they wanted to make "everyone" games so they made their games family friendly and became known as the kiddy company.  On the Wii they wanted to make "everyone" games and also wanted to expand gaming to non-gamers so they made games that were accessible to everyone and became known as the casual company.  They fail to realize that not everyone is cool with the lowest common denominator.  Wii Music is certainly accessible to everyone but it is not in any way INTERESTING to everyone and that is their mistake.  They never could understand that teenagers and young adults that wanted to play Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid did not want to play colourful happy-go-lucky games and that failure continued with the Wii where they did not understand that gamers that wanted to play Gears of War or Halo did not want simplified mini-game compilations with novelty controls.

To truly appeal to everyone one must have have a variety of games that appeal to different demographics.  You cannot rely on "one-size-fits-all" games as that will only attract the lowest common denominator.  I think Nintendo clearly recognizes that they're doing SOMETHING wrong but I'm not sure if they understand that THIS is what they are doing wrong.

Of course there is nothing wrong with making Wii Music.  The mistake is slotting it in the Christmas "spot" and expecting all demographics to go nuts over it.

You know I really like to hear something from someone who was at E3 2008 and talked with Nintendo after the press conference during.  What their vibe was and how the big personal was taking it.

It is possible that they know about the lack of games, but Iwata may not want to admit that because back when the Wii first launched he made very specific promises that there wasn't going to be a game drought this time and that Nintendo was making efforts to prevent that. Well, we have a games drought now despite those promises. So he may just be trying to divert the blame over to marketing because the real reason is too embarrassing.

If you have the nearly nonexistent level of third party support that the Wii has, there are going to be droughts. No one company can sustain a system all by itself without gaps. I'm not letting Nintendo off the hook for the lack of third party support, but there really isn't anything they can do about it at this point.