It better be 4 player with items on random stage. Otherwise you might as well catch cancer.

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Originally posted by: 18 Days
It better be 4 player with items on random stage. Otherwise you might as well catch cancer.

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Wavedashing isn't a skill, it's a glitch. Exploiting it is lame.

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Originally posted by: 18 Days
It better be 4 player with items on random stage. Otherwise you might as well catch cancer.

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SSBM at EVO?

Well I'll say this is a simpathy vote for the GC.
Every other AAA on the GC can be found on other consoles.

How are they going to do this? SSBM is a fighting game for people
who can't play real fighting games. Four player mode turns into a button mashing mess.

Non-Fox/Falco players need not apply.

I just think its a pretty big coincidence that they are just getting around to doing this.

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Originally posted by: Ceric
I just th ink its a pretty big coincidence that they are just getting around to doing this.

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Originally posted by: 18 Days
Wavedashing isn't a skill, it's a glitch. Exploiting it is lame.

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Hey Vance, you seem to be in the know. Will they be using the Tournament feature int SSBM and is there some place where I could look at the rules and restrictions there going to use? I'm sort of curious.

I wonder if Melty Blood will be added when it gets a US release...

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How are they going to do this? SSBM is a fighting game for people who can't play real fighting games. Four player mode turns into a button mashing mess.

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Melty Blood, it would be nice but good luck.

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Originally posted by: darknight06
Nobody EVER plays 4 player mode with items on in a tournament, and you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT button mash in this game.

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The only problem besides getting enough momentum and support to add the game to the list was coming up with a standard list of tournament rules (like what stages, characters, and game settings are/aren't allowed) that's fair to all players while being consistent as possible to how previous SSBM tournaments have been organized.

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Avcon had a 90 man melee tourament last convention, was really fun in 4 player
I ended up being beaten by the winner in sudden death lol
4 play can be pretty damn exciting

only peple who seem to hate melee is the damn sf alpha kiddies anyway, doesnt seem like the other fighting game fans would really care

"Any tournaments I have ever played in are usually 1v1 no items on a stage like Final Destination or Battlefield."

This sounds like the most boring horsesh!t in the world. The only reason I like SSBM is because of the crazyness of four player battles with random items. If I want to just play one on one in a fighting game I'd prefer to play something like Street Fighter. I've never recognized SSB as a fighting game because I find if you actually play it like a fighting game it isn't any fun. It works best as a wild crazy battle royale game.

Though when playing SSBM my friends and I do have two rules. Random fighter selection and no C-stick smashing. Hell I didn't even use C-stick smashing when unlocking the sound test. I usually forget it even exists. Random fighter selection is to make up for any unbalanced characters and is used in virtually every fighting game we play.

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Originally posted by: Ceric
Hey Vance, you seem to be in the know. Will they be using the Tournament feature int SSBM and is there some place where I could look at the rules and restrictions there going to use? I'm sort of curious.

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Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...

well how can you be the best player, if u can only play well on 2 stages?
whole point of touraments is to crown the best player... kind of lazy for top players to say final destination only

"Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have."

I understand that. I'm just saying that I personally would find playing SSBM in a tournament setting to be incredibly dull.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...

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It's only dull when you don't understand the intricate details of the engine. Granted the game isn't perfect, there are balance issues whether it's FFA or Tournament play but I'd rather watch a tournament of this over either MK or DOA any day of my life. The biggest hurdle from getting into Evolution other than it being on console (there was a huge thing against tournaments on console at one point) was the whole "tiku tiku" image deal and the fact that for the longest time they thought the game had to depth or skill to it despite the game IMO having a significant learning curve if you plan to play it seriously. (go to SRK and I'll bet you'll find people disputing this as we speak, there's a lot of oldschool arcade fighting gamers there that DO NOT take to these changes well, it was bad enough when MKDS was announced the year before ) It really is a whole new set of skills you have to have to play it well enough to win decently at a tournament level, and even though I can't bring myself to play it at that level (I feel there's no realistic way I can catch up to that level of playing), I most definitely have a lot of respect for it. I would arguably say it's one of the more innovative fighting games to come out in a long while.

Sometimes, while playing SSBM, a player will just randomly explode and be hurled off the screen.

This phenomenon typically occurs while standing on an incline when a Bob-omb spawns right at your feet, hits the incline, rolls for .001 seconds, registers contact with the player and detonates.

So yeah, it's entirely possible for a player to be winning and then just be randomly wiped out of the game by a retarded item spawn. That's the kind of thing you DON'T want at tourneys.

Well it will be interesting to see what happens with this. Certain characters excel at certain boards. It sounds like EVO is trying to fit SSB:M into a SF2 style mold and I don't think it will really fit.

I guess it's my own personal gripe against the game itself and some of it's players. I've been beaten by many a player on pure speed and reflexes only to watch those same people not last 2 matches against the computer in DOA. I just wish many of the people who played SSM went on to play other fighting games. They don't they just stay with SSB because their sorta good at it and don't want to lose or try something harder.

Oh well the entire fighting game community is fractured as hell. One look over at SRK proves that.

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Originally posted by: Vance

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Originally posted by: 18 Days
Wavedashing isn't a skill, it's a glitch. Exploiting it is lame.

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This is like saying exploiting combos in Street Fighter II is lame, or exploiting snaking in F-Zero GX and Mario Kart DS is lame. You could choose to ignore the fact that these moves exist but you're probably not going to win a lot of tournaments in the process.

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Originally posted by: Dasmos
I don't really see how wavedashing is that helpful, except for edgehogging.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Non-Fox/Falco players need not apply.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...

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Originally posted by: Galford
I just wish many of the people who played SSM went on to play other fighting games. They don't they just stay with SSB because their sorta good at it and don't want to lose or try something harder.

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If you want to have randomness in the game you'd need a large number of matches to even that out in a tournament (because it'd suck to see a match go to the weaker player because of a lucky item spawn) so the better player will still win more. Since noone has the time to run multiple matches for each bracket the randomness gets minimized so the skill becomes apparent immediately.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If you want to have randomness in the game you'd need a large number of matches to even that out in a tournament (because it'd suck to see a match go to the weaker player because of a lucky item spawn) so the better player will still win more. Since noone has the time to run multiple matches for each bracket the randomness gets minimized so the skill becomes apparent immediately.

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Would still need to be 30+ to eliminate the effects of randomness. 3 lives means losing one to an unlucky bobomb spawn can turn the match.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Would still need to be 30+ to eliminate the effects of randomness. 3 lives means losing one to an unlucky bobomb spawn can turn the match.

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It can still end up giving one player more power than the other by just finding more useful items.

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Originally posted by: Shift Key The good players deal with the Bobomb or GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.

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Sometimes, while playing SSBM, a player will just randomly explode and be hurled off the screen.

This phenomenon typically occurs while standing on an incline when a Bob-omb spawns right at your feet, hits the incline, rolls for .001 seconds, registers contact with the player and detonates.

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Originally posted by: Shift Key I throw my gauntlet at your face. I lost count of the number of times that I've dominated Falco/Fox players using Link or Pikachu. Bring it.

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On the one hand, I agree that the randomness in a tournament game needs to be mitigated. On the other hand, the randomness and items and crazy stages are part of the game. How can anyone who avoids all of that claim to be the best at the game? It's like trying to set a world record for the number of times bouncing a ping pong ball on a paddle while whistling Dixie on top of a 43 story building at night in February. Just keep adding enough conditions, and sooner or later you'll only have to be good enough to bounce a ping pong ball once.

Have you ever read this essay? It seems to me that that argument could be used in support of wave-dashing. I think it's okay to exploit wave-dashing even though it's a bug (and I hope it's gone in Brawl). I can't pull it off, but I'd never enter a tournament with the expectation that it wouldn't be used against me, because anyone who whines that it shouldn't be allowed is, to use that essay writer's term, a scrub. A scrub sets up rules of engagement, holding back his game. In fact, he's not even playing the same game as competitive players. To me, turning off items and only playing on two stages sounds extraordinarily scrublike. Something random might happen and cost you* the match, you say? That's part of the game. You didn't get the best items? That's part of the game. Maybe you could have gotten the best items if you had ever learned how. Maybe you could have made do with the items you got if you had learned how to use them.

I don't expect to change any minds. I understand why tournaments are played that way. I just think it's weak. I might actually find it exciting to watch a replay of a tournament match if it weren't for all the limitations the players put on themselves. As it is, the ones I've seen were very, very boring.

*This is a hypothetical you. Not you, personally.

I agree that it's boring, but the point of Evo and fighting game tournaments is to have relentless 1v1 combat, something that SSBM somehow has despite being intended as a 4 player party game with plenty of randomness.

In that sense, they're only competing on one aspect of the game, not the entire game. SSBM with random items and 4 players is a completely different game to what they'll be playing at Evo.

I likewise hope wavedashing is eliminated in Brawl.

You can't play only on Final Destination. The completely flat arena gives some characters an advantage, those who can fight better side to side. Just like other arenas give vertically-oriented characters an advantage.

You can't play without items, items are an essential part of the game. I can see an argument for eliminating, say, the Bob-omb, since they add too much randomness. But most items don't have this problem. Using items, getting to them quickly, preventing your opponent from using them, defending against item attacks, these are all important skills in Melee.

I also don't have a problem with 4-player matches in a tournament setting. Keeping a level head, taking opportunities as they come, and avoiding being juggled by 3 other players are, once again, important skills. If I were to design a tournament, there would be 4-player matches and 1v1 matches, and your standings would depend on points scored in each match.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
ite a few occasions, especially with boxes. When there's zero time elapsing between when the item appears and starts to roll on top of you, it would take nothing short of Jedi powers of perception to avoid it.

Again, you DON'T want that in a tournament.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Let's make a bet: If anyone gets into the top 5 in the 2007 Evo tournament with Link or Pikachu, I'll buy you the Wii game of your choice. Otherwise, you buy the Wii game of my choice for me.

Deal?

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I didn't read this whole thread, but I'd like to say that SSBM without items isn't SSBM at all.

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Originally posted by: Shift Key
1. Stay away from sloping areas. On the huge maps this is easy to do. Think of it as King of the Mountain or something - find a favourable area and defend it like a drunk protects a keg. Some players perform better on flat areas, others do better from above or below an opponent.

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2. Move around. This won't be a guaranteed strategy due to the randomness of the item spawns. But in generalities, the place where an item just dropped is less likely to have another item drop there in the next x seconds when compared to the rest of the map. Fighting in the same area is asking for randomness to have an impact.

I'm all for a subset of items being used randomly, but if you take out items completely then you just aren't playing SSB.

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Get nicked. The odds are stacked heavily in your favour because its a tournament.

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But that doesn't change my opinion that they are very powerful in the right hands.

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In my humble opinion, when it's 1v1 with items, the items always drop closer to the person who is losing, unless it's something that will blow up. Granted there will be times that an item will drop by the winner that won't explode, but from my person experience, I have seen it almost always try to give the losing play some sort of edge when playing with items.

From what I've known from tournies around the US, I thought the loser picks the level. I thought only moving levels were restricted, and that the loser or new comer gets to pick the level. I just think that since everyone ussually is the same characters, due to character tier and popularity, that the same levels are always getting picked. I've seen a lot of interesting and fun 1v1, no item matches online and I really don't think the tournie style of playing is really that dull. You can actually learn a lot from watching them, and I don't mean wavedashing. Sure, A lot of tournies are won with the higher tier characters, but I have seen A LOT of videos and tournies won by Peach and Link. Lately, The Ice Climbers have been winning a lot of matches to, becuase of a new "glitch" that always you to have complete control over both characters, for the most part.

I personally can't do wavedashing effectively, and I do think it should be taken care of in Brawl. Although, I do see where it has now became an underground move, and seeing them make it an actual legit move in the game and making it easier to pull off for the sake of everyone. I don't fully agree with it, but I can still see it being thought about in development.

I really can't stand any new MK games, and DoA really never interested me either. I do love fighting games though, especially Soul Caliber titles, but I can't stand how newer fighting games just don't flow with each other. Mostly all the moves are kind of choppy, and I understand it's to stop people from button mashing, but the moves and combos don't really flow together in my opinion. SSBM is a very intense and smooth playing 1v1 game, and it really does show off the cream of your crops. When my friends and I get together to play Smash Brother Melee, we don't let each other use C-Sticking and we don't use items. Personally think items makes some people cowards and sit at the end of the screen and constantly running around from people until they get an item. A good example is having Samus sit at one end of Hyrule Castle, and constantly using ranged attacks until an item falls by them to come into a battle. Don't get me wrong, we play with items here and there, but showing off your raw skills and not having to deal with trying to organize and control the chaos around you is really fun. Situations like this, your every move is vital and the slightest bit of hestitation can cost you a life. You can also really find your weakness with a certain character doing 1v1 and improve your game a lot just in that respect.

It's still an epic battle that is chaotic, fast paced, and intense. I also think throwing and short jumps becomes more insential with no items, but this is just my opinion and don't really expect to change other peoples minds about how to play the game. I support 4 player items all the way, but I also understand the depth of 1v1 in Melee. I just fully support the 1v1, no items tournies and think it opens another element to the game that most people don't see for themselves. Everyone has their own style and way of playing the game, and in the end, I would like to see every option and way of playing the game open to everyone, even in the tournies.

This is great news!

Having meelee at evolution could pull more people into the smaller smash brothers tournaments and maybe it will carry over into brawl.

I think they made the right decision not to make it 4 player free for all, too much opportunies for someone to get ganged 3 vs 1(you might have a scenerio where someone has enemies who don't care about fairness). Smash bros. is alot of different things and one of those is a great one on one fighter.

Also free for all just doesn't have much potential as entertainment for some crowd watching. I know some people are bored watching one on one smash bros, but then alot of people also aren't. I'm not sure that could be said about free for all. When people talk about watching 1 on 1 being boring they are comparing it to playing free for all.

I don't know about items though. I've been to 2 tournaments before, one with items and one without items, both were fun and were basically the same, except the one with items had a better crowd response(things like when someone gets a poison mushroom, it's was very supsenseful to see if they survive). Those tournaments were probably just not large enough to have controversy though.

Wavedashes are fun and very useful. Very subtle movements are possible in meelee and that's one of its strengths. The only downside is they feel like it wears the controllers down much faster.