Topic: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now

[Jonnyboy117]

Please use this thread to discuss my new editorial, "Don't Leave Me Now".  You can read it here.

[mouse_clicker]

I love PGC, and I like you a lot, Johnny, but in all honesty I hate your editorials. :\ It's not just that I disagree with you're saying, it's that I feel you're misjudging a lot of the things you're talking about. Grey Ninja felt so strongly about this in regards to your last editorial that he actually left PGC altogether.

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm not out to please anyone by writing these articles.  I think there are some serious problems at Nintendo, and I'm trying to offer realistic solutions.  I happen to think the attrition of third-parties is a very serious issue, and I think Nintendo needs to take drastic measures to stop it.  If you disagree with that, I'd very much like to hear your stance.  Contributing an opposing viewpoint is not flaming, and I would really appreciate the friendly discourse.

[mouse_clicker]

I didn't say you were trying to increase traffic, Johnny, and at the very least I commend you on the honest concern you present in your editorials. I do agree that Nintendo has a problem with 3rd party support, and I do agree that it's something that needs to be fixed if Nintendo wants to advance any further than they already have, but I disagree with how Nintendo lost the support and how it can be won back. I've written about it many times, though, and I'd feel like I'd be beating a dead horse if I did. My thread up in the Gamecube Discussion board has a lot of my thoughts on the subject.

[Jonnyboy117]

I read that editorial at Gamer Revolution, and I too disagree with a lot of their points.  But my editorial is really a very in-depth analysis of a problem they only touch upon.

[mouse_clicker]

That was their editorial, I wrote a counter-editorial. Their editorial was also a lot broader than yours. In any case, my counter editorial sums up my thoughts on the 3rd party situation nicely- if I pasted any of it in here, though, it would be out of context, and I know first hand how many problems that can cause.

[Mario]

I never would have even thought about these "problems" if i hadn't been told them by the internet. Meh, oh well. What i gather from that editorial is that you're unhappy that Nintendo isn't the most popular company to game with. Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?

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I think it’s great that Nintendo and Konami have worked together to bring the original Metal Gear Solid to GameCube, but does this mean that the upcoming Metal Gear Solid 3 will also be released on the system? There’s certainly no guarantee, nor even a strong indication of that at this time.

Uh, what? How dare they not promise us something and then not give it to us!

[Berny]

Mario, you make an EXCELLENT point. Most of PS2's 3rd party titles are crap and should sell as poorly as ED did and didn't deserve. Konami, Namco, and Capcom are the Triumvirate of good game making as I see it. They are really the only 3rd parties worth hanging on to. However, Nintendo needs other games from the lesser 3rd parties for variety and those who just want a cheap game to burn time. Ugh. I can't believe I just said that. It's sad when a video game company who has reiterated that they are dedicated to making great games needs crap 3rd party support to stay alive. Well, I guess by getting diseases you build up an immunity. The bad make the good look all the better.

[jaz013]

I read the editorial and have to say that, since I don't have the knolegde necesesary,  I can emmit and un-biased, formal opionion. But I do agree that Nintendo needs to do something about 3rd. party support. I really was looking for games like Mortal Kombat or Burnout 3, but then, they leave (the publishers). This isn't really upsets me, since I always found something that replace the lost titles, but seeing how they lose games is discouraging. Personally, I think they should have a more aggresive aproach to the market. In the Super Nintendo days, they had ads in the premium time in open TV here in México, but suddendly, they stoped and only had ads on cable. And now, there are none, only for the FF:CC twice a week (during a mexican gaming TV show). Microsoft and even Nokia had (althought really shortly) ads in open tv.

Maybe the answer really relays in "having the example", release games in every posible category even when these titles be "garbage-ware". I know this goes againts the policy of Nitendo, but hey!, if everybody it's playing with mud, maybe it's time to get a little dirty.

Again, just my opinion.

[Jonnyboy117]

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Originally posted by: Mario
Uh, what? How dare they not promise us something and then not give it to us!

Konami promised nothing, you're right.  But I think Nintendo has implied many times that these collaborations were meant to build relationships with third-parties, which means garnering more support with their titles.  And so far we haven't seen that, although there really hasn't been enough time to gauge it properly.  This is something we'll have to keep watching as games like Twin Snakes and Star Fox are released.

[mouse_clicker]

I think the simple fact that Hideo Kojima has been drooling over Miyamoto and Nintendo is reason enough to believe at least he will have another game out for the Gamecube at some point.

[Kobun Heat]

I generally agree except on two points:

1) Screw Eidos, Acclaim, and Midway anyway
2) Not sure they really need to support online at this time. Psychological effects? Interesting theory, but who knows, really.

[Pale]

When I read stuff like this I tend to agree mostly.  I do want to commend Jonny on such a well written editorial that does criticize the company without sounding like you just like to bitch. (cough like IGN cough)...

Anyway... I really feel that the possibilities of a MS Nintendo partnership are pretty high.  Now, I know this has been brought up a lot, but its something that is starting to make more sense.  MS has the casuals, Ninty the hardcore.  MS has a good grasp on North America, Ninty has Japan....  Now, anyone who knows me knows I can't stand everything Bill gets his hands on.  But from the specs that appear to be leaking on X-Box 2 i can't help but wonder.  What would make MS go with the leading chip manufacturer for Apple?  That just seems weird to me.  MS has to know that part of the reason they do so well is because they use parts that joe schmo has heard of...  Do they have some new advisors?  Eh, i dunno, probably not.  But I do think it would be somewhat cool if next gen MS and Nintendo teamed up but still both created their own system.  MS could come up with a great all in one device, a la the PSX, and price it at 350 bucks, and Nintendo could come up with a games only system priced at like 150.  They would use identical gaming hardware so they would use the same games.  I dunno...  I'm just really getting to the point where i see it as the only way to take down sony.  Then again, I don't want bill putting any of his rot in my beloved company...i dunno... i'm torn...

edit:  I like the way 3 more posts came up in the time it took me to type that.  =P  I need some sleep.

[theRPGFreak]

The way I see the whole issue is like this. I went into Best Buy yesterday looking for some CDs. All around me I saw XBox adds and software which drew my eye. When I looked at what you could play on the demo, they were all third party titles that could be found on other consoles. What I think catches an average gamers eye is at how the system looks so powerful and promising, until they see what there is to play. I mean, come on the biggest thing that they had to offer was Halo 2! I also noticed that there was very little to find of the Nintendo area. All that was on display were games like Sonic and Mario. This in my opinion made Gamecube look weak in comparison. Now, I am not trying to promote XBox because I will always be loyal and faithful to Nintendo, but I think that the two main issues that they have to work on that were listed in this article is maturing their look, and third party support. I think that Johnnyboy117 made a great point on how Sony's football games sell poorly just to lure third party in to take over(EA and Sega). I think that Nintendo needs to do what Sony does in this issue: release their own games a month apart from eachother, and give third party the chance to gain some popularity. Sony has done this with games like Jak and Daxster and Ratchet and Clank and has seem to work.

[CrEEpEr]

Words cannot describe how sick and tired i am of hearing this over and over again. Yes, Some third party's are abandoning Nintendo. All of which present valid but very poor excuses for their titles lack of sales. When most of the time. These third party's are the ones to blame. Edios. Releasing hitman 2 a long time after it was released and readily available on the other 2 platform's with little to no improvements. And they wonder why it didn't sell? Lucas arts?. I don't know where this came from. I was under the impression that most of the Cube games they have sold so far are just about on par with those of the xbox. However, Im sure that both the Cube and xbox are no where close to the sales they get on PS2. So in that regard. Shouldn't xbox suffer the same fate? Midway and Acclaim i wont even bothering commenting on. Sega sports was a blow. But lets face it. EA's the big dog when it comes to sport games.

What do all of them have in common? Most of these third party's simply port games to Game Cube with no improvements extras or incentive for anyone to chose to buy it over the other versions. Its just one sloppy port after another. Nothing that just screams BUY ME. I have extras the other two versions wont have. How can Nintendo hope to change these third party's? To push them to make better ports and add extras that they seem very happy to provide other console games with? Nintendo cant hand over a wad of cash to each and every third party to add some exclusive content or make a good port. Or even to pay third party's that threaten to leave. Nintendo cant afford to do that. Unlike Sony and m$. Nintendo's profits come from games alone. They don't have an endless tower of money to reach into every time something goes wrong. They have to fund their own games and hardware as it is. So think realistically here. Besides going bankrupt trying. How can Nintendo change this trend? Im sorry if that came out rude or vile. Im just very frustrated with all the negative press Nintendos been getting lately. Some of it is valid and called for. But some of the things that get pinned on Nintendo these days is just wrong.   Sorry

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

I enjoyed reading Jonathan Metts's editorial.  And I agreed with a lot of his points.

A lot you mentioned who cares about Eidos, Acclaim, Midway etc....and as long as we get support from Namco, Capcom etc....that is okay - is wrong.  Sure, I don't care about Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support too, but when a casual gamer hears they drop GC support, it makes the system look bad, regardless whether the games are crap or not.  And I think that was the point Jonny was making.  The PS2 has a lot of average-to-crap games, but it's the huge library of games that make the console attractive to the casual gamer.

Same with online gaming (not that again ).  I can understand why Nintendo want to stand back and not develop 1st party online titles because they don't see it being as profitable.  I agree with them.  But they should at least give all the tools available for developers to make online titles, and this will give 'em no excuse not to give GC no online support.

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Nintendo has to define its console’s market and demographics through its first-party titles. No amount of advertising or negotiating will make the general public believe that GameCube is a good system for Genre X if Nintendo itself is not devoting any resources to that type of game.

I don't quiet get what you were saying there Jonny.  Are you saying the Nintendo should develop their own brand of sports titles like Sony, EA & Sega do (not including the Mario ones)?  Are you saying Nintendo should start their own sports brand development team or something like that?

[Ian Sane]

"The idea was that Nintendo would design and manufacture a game system, market it to the public so that everyone wanted one, and make it irresistible to other game companies, who would want to sell their games to this rabid audience."

I find that's a very interesting description of the NES strategy since, aside from making the console itself, Nintendo has done NONE of those things with the Cube.  They haven't made their console irresistable to the public and thus one can't blame third parties for not supporting them.  Nintendo has not held up their end of the third party licensing agreement.  Marketing the console is their responsibility, not the third parties'.  I agree with Jonny that the "GameCube is losing the image war" and that relates directly with their third party problems.  I also agree that they should lead by example by releasing a wider variety of titles.  I've suggested a Nintendo sports lineup many times.  Improved marketing would help greatly as well.  Nintendo never marketed the Cube as any different than a second N64 and sure enough that's what it became.  They went into this console war with spoons instead of swords.

"Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?"

Grand Theft f*cking Auto.  You know the biggest success story of this generation.  The two games that have universally recieved high praise from all critics.  The two games that sold MILLIONS of PS2s.  The fact that Nintendo does not have that franchise on their console suggests how ridiculously out of touch they are.  That fact that the best they've done to counteract is publicly bash those games confirms it.

"Anyway... I really feel that the possibilities of a MS Nintendo partnership are pretty high. Now, I know this has been brought up a lot, but its something that is starting to make more sense. MS has the casuals, Ninty the hardcore. MS has a good grasp on North America, Ninty has Japan"

It won't happen or at least I really hope it won't.  That deal benefits MS much more than Nintendo.  Nintendo may be weak in the West but they at least have a piece of the market share and it isn't much smaller than Microsoft's.  MS on the other hand has ZERO presence in Japan.  MS is the one that cannot possibly secure one market on their own.  Nintendo can potentially secure all of them on their own.  Plus the game design philosophy of both companies clashes too much.  Nintendo makes game art; MS makes game product.

And I personally don't see what's so controversial about Jonny's editorials.  We all b!tch about Nintendo in the forums so why is he held to a higher standard just because he runs the site?  I would rather visit a site ran by someone who has some valid criticism once in a while than a total blind Nintendo fanboy.  Jonny is allowed to criticize Nintendo as much as we do and he does it sparingly enough that it seems legitimate and not just tasteless traffic-earning promotion.

[Mario]

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A lot you mentioned who cares about Eidos, Acclaim, Midway etc....and as long as we get support from Namco, Capcom etc....that is okay - is wrong. Sure, I don't care about Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support too, but when a casual gamer hears they drop GC support, it makes the system look bad, regardless whether the games are crap or not. And I think that was the point Jonny was making. The PS2 has a lot of average-to-crap games, but it's the huge library of games that make the console attractive to the casual gamer.

So? Why do we want idiots to buy GCNs? To get more Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support? Hurray, an endless cycle of crap.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
So? Why do we want idiots to buy GCNs? To get more Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support? Hurray, an endless cycle of crap.

Read what I wrote.  I didn't say I wanted more support from Eidos, Acclaim and Midway, (and I'm repeating myself here) but that fact they dropped support makes the console look bad.  Say you are a casual gamer and heard about that.  Would you want to buy a GC that has 3rd support dropping?  No.  And don't say casual gamers mean nothing.  casual gamers >>> hardcore gamers.  If Nintendo want to regain the #1 spot again, they have to win the casual gamers over.

[Mario]

But they're doing fine just now without them...

[Inkwell]

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Originally posted by: Mario
But they're doing fine just now without them...

I really don't understand when people say this. They are doing fine now but what about later;  if anything the gaming industry isn't leaning towards Nintendo. Honestly the only thing IMO is holding Nintendo afloat is the Game Boy and that could change with Sony realease of the PSP. If Sony can market this thing in any way like the PS, things won't be looking so good for Nintendo. Well that off topic...I believe.

[KDR_11k]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Grand Theft f*cking Auto.  You know the biggest success story of this generation.  The two games that have universally recieved high praise from all critics.  The two games that sold MILLIONS of PS2s.  The fact that Nintendo does not have that franchise on their console suggests how ridiculously out of touch they are.  That fact that the best they've done to counteract is publicly bash those games confirms it.

No. The fact that GTA wasn't released on GC showed how much Rockstar dislikes Nintendo, nothing else.

Inkwell: If they want to sell the PSP they need to halve the price first, USD450 is too much for ANYONE.

[Ocarina Blue]

In the market, Nintendo has the privilege of having a very defined image. This is because Nintendo itself (or what is used to represent it) will oft contrast sharply with the other console makers. Nintendo also has a strong fan base, which is no coincidence. It might not posses the largest share of the market, but it posses a clearly defined one. Now, with more competitors and broader audience, the video-game market no longer can be categorised generically as a whole; it's too far developed, and it's too late to stop now.

Nintendo's section of the market may not be the largest, but it does exist, and it is unusually well defined. Bending their strategy to mimic MS's or Sony's will not work. If Nintendo's next big AAA game was GTA: The Mushroom Kingdom, they'd
       a) be laughed at, and
       b) lose a whole lot of their current market share
Nintendo's current audience must be catered for first, or the company will have it's bottom pulled from beneath it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: rabid audience-expansion at the cost of a strongly held fanbase is idiotic, especially when Nintendo's market is so well defined. Nintendo must expand and win back it's image/3rd party support/legacy or whatever slowly, and that's exactly what they're doing. This generation, Nintendo has: outsourced many of it's franchises, had EAD worked on a new franchise, gobbled up 2nd parties like Pac-man gobbles dots, and collaborated with Capcom, Konami and Square. This is all that can be done with Nintendo's current rigid market.

Winning the casual gamers over is fine, but it must be done with Time and Prudence.

[The Omen]

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Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?

The Suffering, Hitman 3, MaX Payne 1&2, Knights of the old republic, Ninja Gaiden, FF(The real Final Fantasy), Sega Sports, Mafia, Colin Mcrae, Devil May cry, Manhunt, Burnout3, Mortal Kombat, MGS3, Fight Night, the list can go on and on.  Those are just off the top of my head.  And why these games?  Its simple.  What is gained by not having something your competitors have?  If your direct competition has games that you don't, then you'd better get them.  Even if a game is rubbish, you still have to have it as an option.

[RealmRPGer]

If Twin Snakes sells well, it could be a major break for Nintendo. Konami would definately seriously consider releasing MGS3 on the 'Cube, and it would offer more support. When other 3rd parties realized how well games can actually sell on GameCube, they'd at least want to put their feet back in the water. However, the really big thing about Twin Snakes is that it's still a RE-RELEASE. Meaning many gamers will feel they've 'already played it' and thus not buy the game. There needs to be some serious marketing of "it's a whole new game!" in order to make casual multi-platform gamers buy Twin Snakes.