Topic: NWR Forums Top 10 Zelda Games

[Ian Sane]

I'd say in a vacuum TP was better than OoT.  If you were coming to the series completely fresh and TP was your first Zelda it would blow your mind.  In comparison OoT would feel like an unpolished prototype.  Or at least it would on the N64.  But now there is a more up-to-date version on the 3DS.  This brings the two games to a comparable level in regards to technology.  OoT probably holds up better in that comparison but I've never played the 3DS version so I don't know for sure.

Since I played the games in the context of their original release TP is a pale imitation of OoT.  OoT had the advantage of being a ridiculously ambitious and groundbreaking game when it was released while TP felt very cookie-cutter.  I was there and know the full context and can't turn that off.  I can't play TP without noticing how closely it follows the OoT template and how my experience is hurt by a "been there done that" feeling.

For most overrated Zelda I would pick Wind Waker.  The graphics backlash was so strong it feels that WW's fans are defensive and overcompensate in praising it.  I can pick it apart in one sentence: "big blue ocean of nothing".  Yet much of the praise it gets for being "one of the best games of all time" is literally that sentence and nothing more.  WHY is it so great?  Because everyone was a big meanie for picking on the graphics?  I do encounter praise for it specifically because of the graphics but if that's a superficial thing for someone to hate on the game for then it also is a superficial reason for the game to be good.  You can't say "graphics don't matter" and then act like the graphic style was so expressive and emotional that it made the game one of the best Zeldas.  Bullshit.  Then I can say the little kid Looney Tunes graphics ruined it.  If the graphics don't matter then we have to take it out of the argument entirely for good or bad.  So take away the graphics and I feel you're left with a fairly conventional follow-up to OoT where travel is slow and tedious, the overworld is mostly an empty ocean, dungeons were cut and it's obvious to the player where they were cut, and the game tacks on an annoying fetch quest at the end to pad the length.  The best I can say is that the camera is greatly improved from the N64 games, the game meets the standards of quality one expects from Zelda and Nintendo, and the last boss fight is awesome.

[Adrock]

I'd say in a vacuum TP was better than OoT.  If you were coming to the series completely fresh and TP was your first Zelda it would blow your mind.  In comparison OoT would feel like an unpolished prototype.  Or at least it would on the N64.  But now there is a more up-to-date version on the 3DS.  This brings the two games to a comparable level in regards to technology.  OoT probably holds up better in that comparison but I've never played the 3DS version so I don't know for sure.

It does.

For most overrated Zelda I would pick Wind Waker.  The graphics backlash was so strong it feels that WW's fans are defensive and overcompensate in praising it.  I can pick it apart in one sentence: "big blue ocean of nothing".

Wind Waker HD effectively fixes that for me. The Swift Sail makes sailing not a kick to the nutsack. The ocean doesn't seem so empty when you can sail so fast and not have to redirect the wind. I'd even go as far as to say that sailing is actually fun and even as fun as Nintendo wanted it to be back in 2003.

I think the gameplay still felt fresh in 2003. Wind Waker was a refined Ocarina of Time then Twilight Princess didn't really refine Wind Waker as much though I did enjoy the Wii Remote controls, particularly aiming.

I initially hated the cel shaded graphics, but they grew on me over the years, particularly after Twilight Princess' Hyrule looked so drab. The Wii U E3 demo is a nice middle ground (e.g. has more color but isn't so bright) though I'd still like to see a 3D Zelda taking place mostly on land with Wind Waker's art style. Briefly walking through Hyrule at the end of Wind Waker was a tease. And no, Spirit Tracks does not count.

[Ian Sane]

I initially hated the cel shaded graphics, but they grew on me over the years, particularly after Twilight Princess' Hyrule looked so drab. The Wii U E3 demo is a nice middle ground (e.g. has more color but isn't so bright) though I'd still like to see a 3D Zelda taking place mostly on land with Wind Waker's art style. Briefly walking through Hyrule at the end of Wind Waker was a tease. And no, Spirit Tracks does not count.

I like the in-between graphics style of Skyward Sword but I would give a Wind Waker on land a go in a heartbeat.  WW, SS and the DS games have weird ways of travelling where you're detached from the main way to move around.  I prefer to get around on foot or horse like in OoT, MM and TP.  It's kind of annoying that whenever Nintendo has gone with a cel-shaded art style they've paired it up with some detached travel method.  It feels more like I'm getting somewhere if I get there the same way I move around a dungeon.  Zelda works best when the world is connected, instead of broken into chunks.

[TheBossGaro]

But now there is a more up-to-date version on the 3DS.

Coming from someone who has played the heck out of OoT, I honestly felt the remake did a disservice to the game. It was great, don't get me wrong, but I felt the improved graphics brought out the worst in the game. The story is sparse, the land is even more so, but when it has N64 graphics, you don't notice that as much (or at least I didn't). I mean, it's an N64 game, give it a break. But without that context, it seems... empty, especially coming off the heels of Skyward Sword.

[pokepal148]

But now there is a more up-to-date version on the 3DS.

Coming from someone who has played the heck out of OoT, I honestly felt the remake did a disservice to the game. It was great, don't get me wrong, but I felt the improved graphics brought out the worst in the game. The story is sparse, the land is even more so, but when it has N64 graphics, you don't notice that as much (or at least I didn't). I mean, it's an N64 game, give it a break. But without that context, it seems... empty, especially coming off the heels of Skyward Sword.

Except when I played it on virtual console I thought the same thing

[MetalMario2]

But now there is a more up-to-date version on the 3DS.

Coming from someone who has played the heck out of OoT, I honestly felt the remake did a disservice to the game. It was great, don't get me wrong, but I felt the improved graphics brought out the worst in the game. The story is sparse, the land is even more so, but when it has N64 graphics, you don't notice that as much (or at least I didn't). I mean, it's an N64 game, give it a break. But without that context, it seems... empty, especially coming off the heels of Skyward Sword.

Don't be bringing that Skyward Sword golden calf bullshit in here. Worst Zelda game after AoL, which is just fundamentally unplayable unless you're some kind of video game masochist.

[TheBossGaro]

Except when I played it on virtual console I thought the same thing

Well, like I said, it's definitely a sparse game, improved graphics or not. I suppose since I grew up with it, I don't mind it as much. The 3DS version just took away some of the nostalgia, which perhaps makes me a bit more critical of it.

[Mop it up]

I've never really understood how some people view Twilight Princess as an Ocarina of Time rehash. Aside from many of the areas on the map being in relatively similar locations if you play the GameCube version, they are hardly anything alike. Those actual areas are completely different than OoT, the dungeons are totally different with new concepts, there are new mechanics like horseback fighting and the wolf, there are cool new items like the Spinner and Ball 'n Chain... It's a completely different, new game that did not feel similar at all to me (aside from a few usual Zelda conventions that are in every single game).

If Twilight Princess is a rehash of Ocarina of Time, then A Link to the Past is a rehash of Zelda 1.

[NWR_insanolord]

Just a heads up, I'm planning to have the results of this up this week. Right now it's scheduled for Friday. Sorry for the delay, I've had a rough few weeks.

[Mop it up]

S'alright mate, things happen. If you've been sick or something then it's totally understandable, I hope you're feeling better.

[Adrock]

I've never really understood how some people view Twilight Princess as an Ocarina of Time rehash. Aside from many of the areas on the map being in relatively similar locations if you play the GameCube version, they are hardly anything alike. Those actual areas are completely different than OoT, the dungeons are totally different with new concepts, there are new mechanics like horseback fighting and the wolf, there are cool new items like the Spinner and Ball 'n Chain... It's a completely different, new game that did not feel similar at all to me (aside from a few usual Zelda conventions that are in every single game).

Different strokes for different folks, then?

I wouldn't call Twilight Princess a rehash of Ocarina of Time. However, I think it follows Ocarina of Time's example a little too closely. It's Ocarina of Time 2 in terms of look and feel. There were, of course, enhancements and refinements beyond graphics and sound which would seem like bigger deal had there been no console Zelda games between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. That said, I think what hurts Twilight Princess for some people (such as myself) is that The Wind Waker came before it. Even ignoring the cel shading, the world feels different. It's refinements over the N64 Zelda titles are immediately felt. Twilight Princess is more along the lines of The Wind Waker's Majora's Mask.

For me personally, The Wind Waker was the last Zelda game I really enjoyed before the formula began wearing thin. If you switched their release dates, I'd probably feel differently about them in terms of impact. However, I don't think my opinion that Twilight Princess fizzling out towards the end would change. The game is too long and the amount of things to collect is bonkers. The spinner was indeed awesome though criminally underused.

The only thing The Wind Waker was missing was an extra dungeon or two, perhaps one for Nayru's Pearl (instead of Jabun just saying, "Take this. It's a secret to everybody.") and another in the middle or end of the Triforce quest.

If Twilight Princess is a rehash of Ocarina of Time, then A Link to the Past is a rehash of Zelda 1.

I don't think that's the same (though, again, I don't consider Twilight Princess a "rehash" per se). A Link to the Past was the first game in the series with any real structure. In Zelda 1 and 2, you just wandered around until you figured out what to do. There's a feeling of real progression in addition to what better technology naturally provides. A Link to the Past is so different and so much more advanced.

[pokepal148]

Eh the wolf segments tend to break up the flow in my opinion but they also have proven unpopular with many people

[Ian Sane]

All I know is that while I was playing TP I picked up on the OoT similarity with the map early on, mapped out what I figured all the covered areas on my map were and then found it took more work to get myself the motivation to play.  I guessed everything right except that Zora's Domain and Lake Hylia are switched but even that annoyed me because I assumed Nintendo wanted it to be the OoT Hyrule and made a mistake (they're not exactly known for their careful attention to continuity).  Exploration is a big part of what I love about Zelda and if I already have an idea of what's ahead I don't enjoy it as much.  SS started to lose its shine once I picked up that I had to revisit every area multiple times so this applies to any game in the series.  If I'm not exploring I'm not having as much fun.

[Mop it up]

If Twilight Princess is a rehash of Ocarina of Time, then A Link to the Past is a rehash of Zelda 1.

I don't think that's the same (though, again, I don't consider Twilight Princess a "rehash" per se).

It isn't supposed to be a perfect comparison, the point is that I find both comparisons equally ridiculous. If you still want a different comparison, then I'll say that Link's Awakening is a rehash of Link to the Past. That game follows a similar structure as LTTP but I don't think a solid case could be made that it's a rehash.

All I know is that while I was playing TP I picked up on the OoT similarity with the map early on, mapped out what I figured all the covered areas on my map were and then found it took more work to get myself the motivation to play.  I guessed everything right except that Zora's Domain and Lake Hylia are switched

There are plenty of Zelda games that have locations like Lake Hylia, Zora's Domain, Death Mountain, etc. If having locations that follow the same theme is a rehash, then OoT is a rehash of LTTP, for example.

[Ian Sane]

All I know is that while I was playing TP I picked up on the OoT similarity with the map early on, mapped out what I figured all the covered areas on my map were and then found it took more work to get myself the motivation to play.  I guessed everything right except that Zora's Domain and Lake Hylia are switched

There are plenty of Zelda games that have locations like Lake Hylia, Zora's Domain, Death Mountain, etc. If having locations that follow the same theme is a rehash, then OoT is a rehash of LTTP, for example.

TP does not have one or two elements.  The map for the Gamecube one literally checks off all the major areas from OoT and puts them in the exact same location except for the Lake Hylia/Zora's Domain switch.  I can assume Death Mountain might show up again in later games but I shouldn't be able to look at the unfilled map and guess what everything will be and get it right.  Aside from those two areas switching I guessed everything right.  And ultimately it's about whether this affected my enjoyment or not and it did and I have not had this problem with any other Zelda game.  The vague similarities in the other games didn't hurt my experience but in TP's situation it did.

[NWR_insanolord]

I've been listening to old RFNs, and back in the day they had a segment every show where they discussed what was happening in the forums. Anyway, they were looking at a thread like some of the last bit of this was, discussing the quality of Twilight Princess. I didn't look at the whole thread, but I'm pretty sure it mainly just Ian complaining and everyone else arguing with him.

The one point I think gets overlooked in this discussion is Nintendo went out of the way to say it was set 100 years after OoT. How much can you expect geography to change in that short a time? If anything it almost seems like it's changed too much in that time span. I mean, you could call it laziness, but I'd argue it's justified.

[MetalMario2]

WW takes place about 100 years after OoT, I believe, and that had some pretty dramatic fucking changes in geography.

[pokepal148]

WW takes place about 100 years after OoT, I believe, and that had some pretty dramatic fucking changes in geography.

But part of that is divine intervention

[MetalMario2]

True. And all the Zoras drowned, apparently.

[NWR_insanolord]

True. And all the Zoras drowned, apparently.

They might have turned into birds already and Link just never got high enough to find them.

[pokepal148]

No they evolved into birds because bird is the word get it right

Or like the gorons they may have been just chilling in another part of the ocean outside of the great sea

[Spak-Spang]

Or they could be all underwater.  There was very little actual underwater exploration in Wind Waker.  If I saw the world destroyed by land dwellers and I knew there was an incredibly evil man in charge of the world, I would make my people and society unknown to them. 

[Shaymin]

If it's not too late, Link Between Worlds moves to #2, Link's Awakening and Ocarina swap, and Majora's Mask still sucks.

[UncleBob]

OoT, WW, LttP and LBW spoilers... kinda...

So, in OoT, Saria is a sage.  She's a kid who, if she leaves the forest, she dies (or, possibly, turns into a Skull Kid...).  So, how does this young child have babies that become her descendants later on?

[Apollo5]

1. Majora's Mask
2. Ocarina of Time
3. Twilight Princess
4. Link between Worlds
5. Link To The Past
6. Skyward Sward
7. Spirit Tracks
8. Wind Waker HD
9. Link's Awakening
10. Legend of Zelda