Topic: Final Wii U Controller to Use Traditional Analog Sticks?

[SonofMrPeanut]

I don't notice anyone else doing this, so I might as well go for it:  This was an earlier version of the controller.


Why do I believe this?  Gather round the campfire, kids,  Peanut's got some theorizin' to share.


You may remember some patents being made public around late February where the Upad (as I'll call it) was pictured as having analog sticks.  You can see them pictured in this article.  In the articles that presented these photos, these were accompanied with the claim that Nintendo originally intended for the Upad to have dual analog sticks and not circle pads.  It's said here that the patents were filed at the time of E3 2011, but it's possible those designs were the functional build and not the conceptual one.   Fast forward to Friday where we saw a patent that shows wiimote-Upad interaction, and the one pictured resembles the Upad from E3 2011.  Katsuya Eguchi, a senior video game designer at Nintendo, has also stated that the company believes circle pads are the aesthetically and ergonomically superior form of analog control.  Granted this was back in July, but it was after the E3 conference.  While Nintendo may be just showing the old model to keep the new one in secrecy, it's also possible that the pictured model was actually done away with and the model we saw is basically the model we're getting.


With all this in mind, I'm very hesitant to believe Nintendo would bother returning to their old design when they believe so strongly in the opposite choice.  Sure they changed their tune pretty quickly about the 3DS in a few cases, but this doesn't appear to be one of those cases.  I don't, however, doubt that this was an actual version of the controller at one point, and I believe it explains why the employee on Twitter felt safe posting a photo of it.  They assumed that Nintendo would be less likely to react to an older version of the Upad being posted than the current build of the Upad being posted.  Based on how quickly the photo was taken down, though, Nintendo clearly treats any hardware leak equally.


So what do I think of this?  While the sticks might have offered a kind of precision the circle pads can't, the CPs fit better with the build of the controller.  Having a consistently flat surface would be less cumbersome than having these two sticks popping out, and they would lend themselves better to clicking if those rumors turn out to be true.  Another reason I'd be happy with this outcome is that the E3 2011 button layout is far better spaced, the only potential advantage of the old one being the diagonal placement of the right stick (but that ultimately comes down to personal preference).  I do hope Nintendo keeps the LED notification system that's very evident on the pictured controller's home button.

[tendoboy1984]

Here's where you might be wrong. The QA tester at TellTale Games posted that tweet a few days ago, meaning they just recieved a developer kit from Nintendo. This kit is more than likely a newer one, meaning it has the updated controller design and newer internal hardware.


This is the near-final controller design, you can bet on it. Plus, a few people on NeoGaf misread those patents. Apparently, the patent with the analog sticks is the newer one, while the one with the slide pads is the older one.


Also, if this picture was just a prototype model, why would the QA tester delete his twitter account so quickly? He was obviously under some strict NDA that he broke, so he doesn't want to do any further damage to his reputation. But it's too late now, the internet has already seen it.

[SonofMrPeanut]

Here's where you might be wrong. The QA tester at TellTale Games posted that tweet a few days ago, meaning they just recieved a developer kit from Nintendo. This kit is more than likely a newer one, meaning it has the updated controller design and newer internal hardware.


This is the near-final controller design, you can bet on it. Plus, a few people on NeoGaf misread those patents. Apparently, the patent with the analog sticks is the newer one, while the one with the  slide pads is the older one.


Also, if this picture was just a prototype model, why would the QA tester delete his twitter account so quickly? He was obviously under some strict NDA that he broke, so he doesn't want to do any further damage to his reputation. But it's too late now, the internet has already seen it.

The Eguchi quote could also be interpreted as being in the past tense, since he was talking about how they felt at the time.  I'll believe he was declaring the company stance, though, until further proof is provided.


I'm going to disagree, however, that he wouldn't have deleted his account this hastily if he had shared a picture of an older build.  I'd expect Nintendo to react to any hardware leak of this nature concerning the Wii U in the same manner, not making a distinction between stages of development (with the exception of what's been shown to the public).

[Chozo Ghost]

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough? They're like only 2 inches long. Maybe for a child's hands that is sufficient, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be a "mature non-kiddie" console like Kevin Butler always tells us? If what Kevin Butler and the Sony Fanboys tell us about the PS3 is true, then why the heck is the controller not suited for Adult hands?

I have searched many times on places like Amazon to see if there was some kind of shell or something the dualshock controller can snap into which extends the length of the grips to a more adequate length, but I could never find anything. There are plenty of third party controllers which do address the grip length problem, but the third party controllers always have sloppy accuracy and responsiveness with the analog sticks... so I just can't seem to get this problem solved. Does anyone know of a solution?

[tendoboy1984]

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough? They're like only 2 inches long. Maybe for a child's hands that is sufficient, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be a "mature non-kiddie" console like Kevin Butler always tells us? If what Kevin Butler and the Sony Fanboys tell us about the PS3 is true, then why the heck is the controller not suited for Adult hands?

I have searched many times on places like Amazon to see if there was some kind of shell or something the dualshock controller can snap into which extends the length of the grips to a more adequate length, but I could never find anything. There are plenty of third party controllers which do address the grip length problem, but the third party controllers always have sloppy accuracy and responsiveness with the analog sticks... so I just can't seem to get this problem solved. Does anyone know of a solution?

I have a PS3 and a Wii, and I just held the DualShock and Classic Controller Pro in my hands to compare them.


They feel very similar, but the CC Pro does feel a bit more comfortable (it's easier to grip). I have average-sized hands, and while the DualShock feels too cramped and compact, I do like the weight of the controller.


As for the analog sticks, the DualShock's sticks feel much more precise and less flimsy than the CC Pro's sticks. They also have more surface area, which is a huge plus for games that require lots of movement.

[FZeroBoyo]

Well, the control sticks should help people calm down a bit, but another note is the logo on the controller; it seems that Nintendo is sticking with Wii U. Guess we should all learn to live with it, huh?

[Adrock]

We should have learned to live with it last year. For people who aren't ready to accept it, the last thing to grasp to is the idea that if Nintendo were to change the name, they wouldn't print the new name on things until they were ready to announce it. At the same time, they might have stopped printing the Wii U name on things. Who knows how old that redesigned controller is?

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough?

I have small hands so I never really had a major issue with it. I always liked the GameCube controller more but I don't hate the Dual Shock controller. I admit that Sony should seriously consider a redesign. It's almost a good controller. I never felt that it was unusable; just that there's no reason for it to not be better.

[Chozo Ghost]

Even if that picture is recent, it wouldn't necessarily prove that the Wii U name is final. Have they even begun mass producing these things? The one we see in the picture is just a prototype. Maybe its a finalized prototype, but to change the logo on it is trivial. Only after mass production of these things begin will it be set in stone.

[broodwars]

*shrugs*

I've never had a problem holding the grips on either of the Dualshocks.  Without a point of comparison, I can't say if that means I have small hands or not, but maybe so since I don't have an issue holding the Vita either.

My main issues with the Dualshock 3 design are those horrible L2 and R2 triggers, which feel extremely loose because they slide down and inward in an arc without a solid backing.  Yeah, the 360's secondary triggers do that as well, but they don't feel like you're going to break them every time you press them in.

One other thing, too: if Nintendo's truly switched over to using analog sticks, they'd better have click functionality considering how often I see games on other consoles use them for things like crouching or running.

[Adrock]

I believe BnM posted a rumor about the clicky analog stick/circle pad. I'm personally not a fan of them but it should be there for parity with the other consoles' controllers.

[tendoboy1984]

I find it funny that many of these rumors come from NeoGaf, and lo and behold, there are a few Gaf members here. Coincidence?

[0-Watt]

The Internet is full of overlap

and you have to feel a little sorry for the guy who posted that pic.  You know he's in for it considering this is a Nintendo-published game he was QA-testing AND was still an unreleased version of the controller.

[NWR_Neal]

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

[Ceric]

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Or really simple.  Something along the line of:

"First Rule of Wii U: You don't talk about Wii U without the express written consent of Nintendo.
Second Rule of Wii U: See First Rule

This NDA is binding until such time that Nintendo see fits to release you from this contract which may extend beyond the public announcement."

[Ian Sane]

A controller is a functional tool.  It isn't a game.  It isn't supposed to be fun.  It isn't a marketing tool.  It's supposed to be practical.  A good controller is a one where the user has precise control over the game they are playing.  So having both analog sticks on the top sure looks nice but "looks nice" means DICK.  The second you consider "looks nice" is a priority in controller design you have failed.  Above all else it has to work.  And it needs to work for the majority of games.  It's a broad functional tool.  If the design is too specific then it sucks as a controller.  The Gamcube controller was amazing for some games designed for it and sucked for everything else.  Therefore it sucks.  It was so comfortable in my hands but it was not designed to work for all games in a broad sense so by controller standards it sucks.  It's too bad because with a few tweaks it could have been great.

I never liked the dualshock but it was entirely because of ergonomics and that horrid split d-pad.  I find the Dualshock 3 is vastly improved.  It was the best controller I had ever used... until I got a CC Pro.  THAT is the best controller I've ever used.  It's ergonomic, practical, and works for pretty much every non-motion control game (or would if Nintendo, you know, supported it more).  The Dualshock design was solid, it's was just the wrong company working on it.  Once Nintendo used it, they did it right.  If you don't have a split d-pad, actually know what "ergonomics" means, don't use cheap plastic, don't have squishy buttons, and assign the buttons terms that human beings are actually familiar with like 'A' and 'B' instead of abstract shapes, you have a pretty amazing controller which would make a good standard.

I really hate the Playstation shapes.  I can't play God of War because of the QTEs.  Suddenly the game is throwing triangle and square at me.  I don't know what the **** button that is!!  Seriously with any Playstation game that asks me to push a specific button I have to look down at the controller to figure out which one they mean.  When I play I get used to what button is shoot and jump and just handle the basic stuff like that but then once it tells me to push a specific button I do not instinctively just know.  Now for anything that uses letters, I do just know because people deal with letters all the time.

[UncleBob]

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Can't speak for a Wii U NDA (is it because I haven't seen one or I've signed one and can't disclose it?  dun dun dun... Okay, I haven't seen one), but having actually read and signed my first real NDA recently, I have to say, it probably isn't that fun of a read.

The fun stuff is after you've signed it.

[Ceric]

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Can't speak for a Wii U NDA (is it because I haven't seen one or I've signed one and can't disclose it?  dun dun dun... Okay, I haven't seen one), but having actually read and signed my first real NDA recently, I have to say, it probably isn't that fun of a read.

The fun stuff is after you've signed it.

So... Since it wasn't an NDA.  What flavor was the Mystery Dew?

[Ceric]

...
The Gamcube controller was amazing for some games designed for it and sucked for everything else.  Therefore it sucks.  It was so comfortable in my hands but it was not designed to work for all games in a broad sense so by controller standards it sucks.  It's too bad because with a few tweaks it could have been great.
...

I have to totally Disagree with you.  If I could use a Wavebird over a CCPro for MHTri I definetely would.  I like specific examples where the Wavebird as the control interface ruined a game. 

[Ian Sane]

Any game that requires a d-pad plays like complete **** on the Gamecube controller.  Ever played Capcom vs. SNK 2?  Any fighting game aside from SSB needs digital controls for movement and the Wavebird d-pad is too damn small to consistently execute fighting game moves.  The goofy button layout doesn't work well for that game either.

Another example was Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 (remember when Tony Hawk games actually mattered?  Weird, huh?)  You use the d-pad or control stick to maintain balance when grinding.  The function is digital and thus works better with a d-pad, except that the Cube d-pad is so small you end up hitting diagonals the whole time and lose your balance.  The d-pad alone just disqualifies the Cube controller from "best ever".  The original prototype didn't even have a d-pad until third parties asked Nintendo to make one so Nintendo just threw the GBA d-pad on there.  Good controllers don't have mandatory elements begrudgingly thrown on at the last minute.  Nintendo wasn't going to put one on the controller entirely because THEY didn't feel they would use it.  That's the wrong approach.  It's too specialized.

And irony or ironies Nintendo then was going to launch the Wii with ONLY a d-pad until Retro suggested the idea of the nunchuk.

Nintendo's best controllers were on the NES and SNES (though they are outdated now of course).  Those controllers were practical with a broad design and the SNES controller builds on the NES one without removing any of the functionality.  Of course those were the last Nintendo systems to have decent third party support.  They came out at a time when Nintendo seemed to actually care about other developers making games on their systems and didn't design everything solely for their own purposes.  They switched to the "our way or the highway" approach on the N64 and have pretty much made Nintendo-only machines since.  The controls alone didn't cause that but the whole approach to design any hardware has been very self-serving and specialized ever since.  I suspect the cause is Gunpei Yokoi leaving.  He had major involvement in Nintendo's hardware.  Meanwhile Miyamoto made the N64 cartridge based entirely because he didn't want load times in his games and pretty much designed the controller entirely around Super Mario 64.  The NES, SNES and Game Boy were all made in the Yokoi-era and are all quite broad in their design.  Everything since the N64 has been more specialized.

[Adrock]

So having both analog sticks on the top sure looks nice but "looks nice" means DICK.

Are you suggesting that the analog sticks on top won't work? I feel like it makes more sense for the right analog stick to be above the face buttons. Games that use the right analog stick heavily typically do so primarily with the shoulder buttons. How often does Nintendo put form before function? This is the same Nintendo that said, "**** the diamond layout we invented. Kidney shaped buttons for you."

[NWR_Neal]

I actually had to sign a Nintendo NDA so we could get an early copy of Dillon's Rolling Western for review when it was revealed at Nintendo Direct.

It was threatening, but I doubt it was as interesting as the Wii U NDAs. I did have to take my 3DS offline until the game was revealed, though.

[Ian Sane]

How often does Nintendo put form before function?

The Wii controller was designed, not because it was the most practical approach, not because it was the most precise control method, not because it was the best way to control games, but entirely because they wanted non-gamers to not be confused so they went with motion control and TV remote appearance.  The Wii control was designed as a marketing tool first, videogame controller second.  I think it is totally believable that Nintendo would compromise the Wii U controller because they felt that symmetrical analog sticks would be more attractive.  Last gen, Nintendo lost all credibility with controllers.  There were more Nintendo games with wonky imprecise controls on the Wii then their entire history prior to that.

I used to see Nintendo as they most reliable company for have responsive controls.  Because of the Wii and DS my opinion of them has completely flip-flopped and they're now the company I associate the most with broken, unresponsive controls you have constantly to fight with.

Realistically the whole screen thing is a marketing tool in the first place.  They've had dual screens all through the DS life and haven't demonstrated it as anything more than a gimmick.  Now they introduce it to consoles and it will be different?  I doubt it.  The marketing team indicated that another gimmick would be needed to attract attention and that tablets are cool right now so go for that.  Again, the controller is designed as a marketing tool first.  Thus I can see all sorts of questionable design ideas being put into it.

I will assume the worst until those that give it a good whirl at E3 say otherwise.  Nintendo has to re-earn every little piece of trust I have in them.

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

[Adrock]

The Wii control was designed as a marketing tool first, videogame controller second.

How did you come to that conclusion? That's not... Nintendo started with motion controls then put a shell around it. There is no Wii Remote with the accelerometer and optic sensor. It always began as an input device for videogames.

I think it is totally believable that Nintendo would compromise the Wii U controller because they felt that symmetrical analog sticks would be more attractive.

That must be why they put 2 circle pads on 3DS. For symmetry.

[Mop it up]

I've seen several people state that the GameCube controller sucked for certain types of games, not just on this board, but other places too. What types of games are we talking about? I, personally, have never had an issue playing any game on the GameCube using its controller.