Topic: What got up David Jaffe's butt?

[Deguello]

http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/in_which_i_get_into_a_twitter_fight_with_game_developer_david_jaffe/

Whoa this really got out of hand for a guy who just wants to know why David Jaffe doesn't like a consumer's right to sell their property after they buy it.  I remember Mike Capps from Epic also stated his ire for used games and wanting to digitally distribute game endings, which basically means selling incomplete games on purpose.

Is this a trend we should be worried about?  Is there any reason there is this push to deny the right to own a video game?  Is this the sort of response people should expect when they want to actually own their video games?

And wow, David Jaffe has a pretty short fuse.  Could anybody imagine Shigeru Miyamoto or Will Wright or hell, even Shinji Mikami or Suda 51 responding to a gamer's issues with "**** off?"

Jeez.

[ShyGuy]

Jaffe has always came across as having a short fuse.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Jaffe has always came across as having a short fuse.

But he is such a creative genius.

[Deguello]

Is he such a creative genius that he deserves a cut of used game sales?  Not even actual creative geniuses demand that.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Is he such a creative genius that he deserves a cut of used game sales?  Not even actual creative geniuses demand that.

Have you played God of War? I mine the creativity in those games, not just anyone can create such complex and well written games. Of course he deserves used game sales!

[Morari]

Is this a trend we should be worried about?  Is there any reason there is this push to deny the right to own a video game?  Is this the sort of response people should expect when they want to actually own their video games?

Yes.

Welcome to the world of DRM and digital distribution. Your rights mean nothing. The product tha tyou purchased is not actually yours to own, simply rent. as such, it will become obsolete and completely unplayable in a few years times. Tough luck for you, now **** off.

[TJ Spyke]

What's the big deal? He seems to have no problem with used game sales, he just wants game developers to get a cut. Car manufacturers do that with used cars.

The guy from Epic Games sounded like a dick though. Not for the first time either.

I also hate the whole DRM thing for digital games and how you are legally just buying a license to play the game and not the game itself.

[Deguello]

Why would he deserve a cut from me selling a game back to Gamestop?  Why would he then deserve a cut from Gamestop selling the game to somebody else?  How come in his video response he said the gamer would "pirate games" just because he wants to be able to sell his property back to a store?

[broodwars]

I'm currently reading the twitter replies right now that the guy posted (which, mind you, is a little painful with all the internet abbreviations), but so far all I have to say is that I'm glad David Jaffe has yet to make a game I actually like and want to buy.  I was mildly curious about God of War, but thankfully my best friend loaned me his copy of those two games and they were just as mediocre (except in production values) as I expected.  I recommend if you want to see more of Jaffe on this subject to check out the Gametrailers Bonus Round series of videos about the Used Game market, since he's one of the panelists.

[BranDonk Kong]

David Jaffe is gonna be pissed that you borrowed your friend's game without sending him some money. The (not-so) simple answer is to boycott GameStop and create the ultimate game-trading website - run by gamers themselves, and not businessmen. Gaming is a hobby. Buy a game, play it, sell it at a fair price.

[BranDonk Kong]

Oh, and to answer the question in the topic - I'd say Robin Clarke's cock.

[D_Average]

Though I don't agree with Jaffe, or play any of his games. I admire his candid expletives.  Its a breath of fresh air.  I'll never forgot the time he put joystiq in their rightful place.  I'd be frustrated too if I lost thousands of sales over a measly five bucks.  I'd never pay 5 dollars less for a game covered in germs, but the system is fair.  Just a byproduct of the invisible hand.

He should just look on the bright side and be glad he's not in the music industry. 

[Deguello]

Being angry and foul-mouthed all the time on the internet is nothing fresh.  No, not at all.  He has a right to be frustrated, but everybody gets frustrated.  He just goes around insulting people on the internet, including his fans, which is pretty off-putting, considering he really hasn't been that influential at all.  At least not influential enough to demand this:

Jaffe: I think it’s pretty rude to resell a game I worked on with 0% degradation between used and new and not cut me in on the deal.

Wow.

[D_Average]

Most developers I see interviewed stay pretty close to the PR train.  Thats why I find him "refreshing", even though I rarely agree with him.  If anyone is curious, here is his youtube follow up to the twitty fight where he elaborates a bit on the topic.

[Deguello]

His youtube response is pretty bad.  He acts like his customers are "smarmy and self-entitled" because they want the right to sell what they have paid money for without giving him a cut.  What the hell?

And I don't see where he gets off cursing people who criticize him on the internet.  That's just not a good way to get customers, and is... well... pretty damn arrogant.  I mean he's whining that he's not getting a cut of used sales?  How about, make games people want to buy and not sell back, like Mario Kart?  Why does he think he's so special?

And I'd say he's pretty close to a PR train for Sony, because they are about to launch a Digital Distribution only handheld and wowee, suddenly he's pushing Digital Distribution as a solution to those pesky customer who want to own something and be able to sell it back without giving him a cut of the money.

EDIT: Oh yeah bonus asshat points for insinuating everybody wants to pirate games in response to them going digital distribution.

[Infernal Monkey]

I bought God of War on clearance and ended up hating it, so I traded it, and got like a massive $4 or something for it. The next day I found David Jaffe in my kitchen, eating my Corn Flakes. I was all, "hey come on now David Jaffe, you can't just eat my Corn Flakes without asking! And breaking down my door! And why is there sperm all over my toothbrush, I don't remember doin-" but veins started popping out of David Jaffe's neck. He was mad. Real mad.

He threw the spoon to the floor and came at me with all his might. Being shorter than a toddler, he simply bounced back upon making contact with my knee. "YOU CAN'T SELL SOMETHING I MADE" he screamed, tears forming in his eyes. "I MADE GOD OF WAR, IT WAS ME, I WAS THE SINGLE DEVELOPER, I PUBLISHED IT, I HANDLED PUBLIC RELATIONS, I ADVERTISED IT, GOD OF WAR IS MY BABY, AND YOU'RE SELLING IT, MY BABY!"

I paused. That poor man. I had no idea. I put my hand on his head (having to bend down in order to do so). "There, there, little guy, it's okay". I then threw him out of my house via the kitchen window. The cool breeze swept him away like a plastic bag.

[D_Average]

And I'd say he's pretty close to a PR train for Sony, because they are about to launch a Digital Distribution only handheld and wowee, suddenly he's pushing Digital Distribution as a solution to those pesky customer who want to own something and be able to sell it back without giving him a cut of the money.

I don't see that as sticking close to the PR train.  Everybody is pushing DD now.  Sony, MS, Nintendo, Valve, Apple, its here to stay.  And it is a solution for pubs who lose money to gamers who play a game for a week, trade it in, and GS sells it for five dollars less.  This is not somthing you see in the car, movie, sports, clothing, etc industry.  Its rare to buy a product and sell it off so quickly.  But it happens with games and music.  Games, b/c there are some games you only need to play once (like Mario Galaxy, Uncharted, Braid).  Its not a knock on the game, and some gamers certainly go back to them, but there are many who play the game, enjoy it for what it is, and move on to somthing else.

David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Apparently when Sony execs and devs are arrogant, it's a "breath of fresh air" to their lackeys, shills, marketers, "art" lovers, "art" makers,  and that multitude of "new customers" that "expanded the industry" and know/understand what classic gaming is because their first console was the original PlayStation.

"Jaffe: I think it’s pretty rude to resell a game I worked on with 0% degradation between used and new and not cut me in on the deal."
On the topic of God of Secondary Transactions Revenue, the system is fair.  Customer A buys a game product from the typical industry institution that runs all the way from the game developer to the retailer at some initial asking price, ie. the "original copy."  Later on, Customer A comes to the conclusion that the game product isn't VALUABLE enough to continue keeping it, so off it goes into the process of used game selling (direct, indirect, whatever).  Then Customer B snatches it up.  Should Jaffe get a piece of that sale?  HELL NAW!  That silly game disc fell out of the institutional loop once Customer A gave it up.  Customer B isn't getting something from Jaffe Game Programming Friends anymore, it's now a disc Customer A is willing to give up.  If Jaffe is supposed to "make more money," he's supposed to make games that customers VALUE and therefore KEEP, and at the same time attracts BRAND NEW CUSTOMERS, because a "kept" game is surely not a "used" game that's available for resale.  A product that's valued, kept, and unavailable used can seem more attractive to those potential "new" customers (neverminding those dedicated deal-seekers).  A product with strong value won't be characterized by Customer B taking the place of Customer A to be "the Customer" at the given time ("one product unit, one active customer" idea).  So devs, shutup and make better products, products worth keeping.

I've never heard Miyamoto or Iwata demand a cut of used sales.  They probably practice an unorthodox business strategy called "common sense," which might not be the easiest thing to master or execute with favorable results everytime, since it's application is pretty rare in the world in the first place.  Common sense didn't say "jam so much stuff into one machine, making it $600 before tax.  People will get it, regardless, surpassing the market performance of the previous machine."  Man, that's like, arrogant.

[Deguello]

I don't see that as sticking close to the PR train.  Everybody is pushing DD now.  Sony, MS, Nintendo, Valve, Apple, its here to stay.

I disagree as to Nintendo pushing Digital Distribution.  If anything they are profiting greatly off the old model of selling actual products for money.  WiiWare and DSiWare EXIST, but they aren't really loading it with their best games, which they save for the actual printing presses.  And how is it not sticking close to the PR train if everybody (ostensibly) is pushing it?  Wouldn't he still be pimping what Sony's about to do?

And it is a solution for pubs who lose money to gamers who play a game for a week, trade it in, and GS sells it for five dollars less.

But somebody bought the game once.  What if he knows he can't sell it if it's bad or he's "done" with it?  Will he even buy games at all?  How would you get back that lost sale?

This is not somthing you see in the car, movie, sports, clothing, etc industry.  Its rare to buy a product and sell it off so quickly.

Yeah, you see it ALL THE TIME, bud.  It's called RENTING.  And Seconhand clothing, used music, refurbished and secondhand sports, and used cars also exist too.

David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.

How?  By being profitable?  This isn't "joining hands," this is a few game developers and publishers trying to threaten the store into giving them a cut of sales they have no right to or they'll try to starve them of products, which will be hilarious to watch when they realize that they need Gamestop, Walmart, etc/ to actually sell their hardware too, unless they have a digital distribution plan for their consoles.

[Infernal Monkey]

David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.

"What kind of a man are you, you're worthless and weak, you do nothing, you are nothing, you sit in here all day and play that sick, repulsive electric twanger, who are you, where do you come from?"

[D_Average]

I disagree as to Nintendo pushing Digital Distribution.  If anything they are profiting greatly off the old model of selling actual products for money.  WiiWare and DSiWare EXIST, but they aren't really loading it with their best games, which they save for the actual printing presses.  And how is it not sticking close to the PR train if everybody (ostensibly) is pushing it?  Wouldn't he still be pimping what Sony's about to do?

Why would you not pimp it?  Its convienent, more effecient, and will generate more revenue by eliminating middle men.  There is nothing wrong with this.  After all, its a buisness.  Considering Jaffe has been chastised by Sony for saying things on his blog in the past, it is a brute fact he does not stick close to the PR train. 

Yeah, you see it ALL THE TIME, bud.  It's called RENTING.  And Seconhand clothing, used music, refurbished and secondhand sports, and used cars also exist too.

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

How?  By being profitable?  This isn't "joining hands," this is a few game developers and publishers trying to threaten the store into giving them a cut of sales they have no right to or they'll try to starve them of products, which will be hilarious to watch when they realize that they need Gamestop, Walmart, etc/ to actually sell their hardware too, unless they have a digital distribution plan for their consoles.

They only need those whores for now.  Wasn't there a huge music store a while back that recently tanked??  Oh yeah, Tower Records.  And now Sam Goody, Virgin and everything in between are being slayed by lil ole iTunes.  These stores used to be giants.

The same fate will obviously hit Gamestop unless they change their model, its become a foregone conclusion.  While there are gamers opposed to DD, recent sales of games like Battlefield 1943 have shown its a successful model and will only grow as the world becomes more connected.

And finally, to summarize, I believe the model Jaffe is b####ing about is FAIR, but frustrating.  I'm just saying I can see where he is coming from and I appreciate his candor on the subject.  And if he or somebody else can figure out a better way to do it without screwing us over, great. 

[Deguello]

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Sarcasm fail.  People do this all the time.  Most of the time, these stores have return policies, which means you can just bring it back for a full refund (or store credit.)  And how did this idea of a gamer who sells the game the next week become the norm?  Are we sure it isn't some sort of strawman erected for the easiness of knocking down for the purposes of denying the right of first sale?

They only need those whores for now.  Wasn't there a huge music store a while back that recently tanked??  Oh yeah, Tower Records.  And now Sam Goody, Virgin and everything in between are being slayed by lil ole iTunes.  These stores used to be giants.

iTunes and DRM games are not the same.  Apple doesn't want a cut of you copying your music to your computer or trading it to somebody else.

The same fate will obviously hit Gamestop unless they change their model, its become a foregone conclusion.  While there are gamers opposed to DD, recent sales of games like Battlefield 1943 have shown its a successful model and will only grow as the world becomes more connected.

They make most of their revenue off of new games, though, and are the very pioneers of pre-order bonuses.  Digital Distribution will always be just over the corner, right around the bend, just as soon as they can make people fine with not owning anything.

[Infernal Monkey]

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Yes, yes, we all know you're a dickhead. No need to try your hand at sarcasm and fail at it completely. I do love that you assume everyone trades in every game they buy the very next week, though. That's a special kind of brain damage, right there. You and Jaffe would get along just fine. Remember though, he's only a little man, please keep that in mind next time you stick your head up his arse.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I say if Jaffe has a problem with GS buying back used games and then selling them for $5 less than the new version, then why doesn't he buy back all the used games that gamers don't want to assure himself that only new copies can be found?

[D_Average]

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Yes, yes, we all know you're a dickhead. No need to try your hand at sarcasm and fail at it completely. I do love that you assume everyone trades in every game they buy the very next week, though. That's a special kind of brain damage, right there. You and Jaffe would get along just fine. Remember though, he's only a little man, please keep that in mind next time you stick your head up his arse.

Anyone who tries to say the used game/music market is equivalent to the clothing/car market is deficient in reason.  You and Jug are not worth debating with.  I'm done with you two.