Topic: A Decade of PGC/NWR: 2000

[NWR_Lindy]

This Talkback thread is for discussing the year 2000 as presented in the PGC/NWR 10th Anniversary special.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=17917

[TheYoungerPlumber]

While Pokemon Gold / Silver is clearly an excellent pick for handheld GotY, Wario Land 3 will always be the #1 handheld game of 2000 in my book. I also played through Crystalis for GBC, although I've been told since then that it was a shoddy port.

[NWR_pap64]

Ah yes, the year 2000...

People thought the world would end. Literally, it didn't. But I think things did change, some for the better, and some for the worse.

But this isn't a social studies class so I better shut up and bitch about games.

By 2000 Pokemon was still ruling my life with an iron fist. I had conquered nearly every cup in "Pokemon Stadium", played the GBC Trading Card game and squealed like a fangirl when I first saw "The Pokemon Movie". Of course, the arrival of Silver and Gold was an event. It ended up being my most played and discussed Pokemon game yet. I beat it several times and had a lot of lvl.100 Pokemon without the need of rare candy. My best friend and I were so hooked into the game that we openly brought out our GBCs, connected our games and traded Pokes before classes started.

"Pokemon The Movie 2000" wasn't as good as the first movie (if that is even possible) but I still enjoyed it.

Gaming wise, the Dreamcast, PSone and N64 ruled my life for another year. Mario Party 2 was amazing at the time of its release, feeling it was much better than the first one. On its release, I thought Kirby 64 was a cute and fun game, but not as good as the other Kirby games. When the topic about 2001 arrives I will explain why it has an emotional significance.

MAJORA'S MASK!

I don't care if people had issues with the time limit, it rocked my world and gave me nightmares for weeks! Why? I was playing the game so much that I started dreaming about the moon crashing into the world, and more than once I stared at it before we were engulfed in flames.

On the Dreamcast there was Shenmue...

Shenmue. So overhyped back then, but now an underrated classic. I really loved the game, and I still like the cheesy dialogue, stiff emotions and stilted acting. It was just so addicting being able to waste my time at the arcade before deciding to look for those sailors. It was almost...magical!

Banjo-Tooie! Well to be honest the game looked great, but didn't think of much of at the time. In fact, I was even a tad disappointed after the first game owned my soul and underpants! There was something about it that prevented me from enjoying the game.

Perfect Dark, like Goldeneye before it, was very overhyped, but multiplayer was very enjoyable.

Man, you guys remember "Hey you Pikachu!"? That game was so bad but so, so funny! One time I actually managed to annoy Pikachu by saying "f*ck"!

One big thing about the year 2000 is that this was when the PS2 was released. At the time I was a regular on IGN's Nintendo forums, and the console wars were heated. Just like RROD, casual gaming and blu-ray player is today's reasons to hate on a console back then the defective PS2s and the claims that it was the cheapest DVD player were constant taunts heard from Nintendo fans.

In my case, I could care less. I really wanted a PS2, especially after watching the great tech demos and the hilarious claim that it could render a scene from the Final Fantasy Movie in real time.

Not only was 2000 a great year of gaming it was also a great year for me as a person. I finished High School with the highest honors, something that surprised me since I wasn't that into school. I even got a standing ovation at the ceremony, something that higher honorees didn't get! It was also my first year of college...

Good times... Good times...

[Mop it up]

Perfect Dark is still my favourite N64 game, so I quite disagree with the points of it being incompetent today. The controls are still excellent, the N64 controller works very well for FPS games with its layout and comfort, and the more resistant analogue stick makes aiming easier... but maybe this is more due to my own personal loathing of dual-analogue controllers. Its corridor levels are much better designed and make for better action than the open field levels in games like Halo, and its selection of weapons is staggering and includes pretty much any type you can think of.

The best feature of Perfect Dark is definitely the A.I. bots in the multiplayer mode. I know people will say that having online modes eliminates the need for bots, but I believe they're needed now more than ever. When you play online you are likely to find extremely skilled players who aren't even going to give you a chance; there's little hope of improving your skills if you're killed ten seconds after you respawn. Bots make for great practice because you can customize them to match your skill level, and even give them unique personality settings like moving really fast or slow, using only explosive weaponry, or having suicidal tendencies. Since I'm non-competitive my friends and I would never play the game against one another, but would instead always team up against the bots. It was a blast!

Doom still kicks big pink demon booty. Shame on you for implying it is archaic.

[NWR_Lindy]

Of all games to have bots, Killzone 2 has them.  And they're apparently really good.  I wrote them off, but Mop's inspired me to give them a try.

My biggest beef with PD was its framerate.  I felt they tried to do too much for the hardware.  But MAN did that game have features out the wazoo.  It was probably about five years ahead of its time in terms of its featureset.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Yeah, obviously we aren't covering the Dreamcast or PS2. It's strange that even though I owned a Dreamcast, I really don't remember playing much for it in 2000. (I really had no business owning one, I neglected it so.) Sonic Adventure and Rayman 2 on Dreamcast were good fun in 1999, and I had some fun with the DC in 2001 as well.... but 2000 is a void for me. I didn't know much about the DC's library, that's for sure. I probably would have picked up Skies of Arcadia had I known of it at the time--I got it for the GameCube later.

[GoldenPhoenix]

PD's biggest problem is that it tried to do too much on N64 and slowed to a crawl in regards to framerate. That really ruined the experience I had with it, which saddened me because it was well done otherwise.

[Stratos]

I disagree Mop It Up.
I played Goldeyeye a few weeks ago with an old friend and just couldn't quite grasp the old scheme. I kept wishing for some dual analog action or even better, a mouse. I tried all of the different controller styles. It then ruined my ability to play Halo. At least my pride blamed it on that since I played so poorly last time.

Framerates never bothered me back then. I actually considered it to be like one of those Matrix-slow-motion scenes.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I disagree Mop It Up.
I played Goldeyeye a few weeks ago with an old friend and just couldn't quite grasp the old scheme. I kept wishing for some dual analog action or even better, a mouse. I tried all of the different controller styles. It then ruined my ability to play Halo. At least my pride blamed it on that since I played so poorly last time.

Framerates never bothered me back then. I actually considered it to be like one of those Matrix-slow-motion scenes.

And I suppose you imagined blurry or pixelated textures as a new generation Picasso painting?

[Mop it up]

Control schemes are one of the most personal aspects of gaming Stratos, so there are no facts.

I can understand the framerate being a problem for some, because even back then it was pretty bad. It helps to switch off the hi-res mode, that makes it a little better. I don't have a problem with it because I've gotten adjusted to games with choppy framerates from all of the N64 games I've played, and from playing Doom on the Super NES (the fact that was even possible is impressive).

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

[NWR_pap64]

Yeah, obviously we aren't covering the Dreamcast or PS2. It's strange that even though I owned a Dreamcast, I really don't remember playing much for it in 2000. (I really had no business owning one, I neglected it so.) Sonic Adventure and Rayman 2 on Dreamcast were good fun in 1999, and I had some fun with the DC in 2001 as well.... but 2000 is a void for me. I didn't know much about the DC's library, that's for sure. I probably would have picked up Skies of Arcadia had I known of it at the time--I got it for the GameCube later.

If this was aimed at me I understand that this isn't about the other consoles. But I mention them alongside Nintendo's games because they played a big role in both my growth as a gamer and a Nintendo fanboy.

The launch of the PS2 was certainly big and it did affect the Nintendo community.

[Stratos]

I disagree Mop It Up.
I played Goldeyeye a few weeks ago with an old friend and just couldn't quite grasp the old scheme. I kept wishing for some dual analog action or even better, a mouse. I tried all of the different controller styles. It then ruined my ability to play Halo. At least my pride blamed it on that since I played so poorly last time.

Framerates never bothered me back then. I actually considered it to be like one of those Matrix-slow-motion scenes.

And I suppose you imagined blurry or pixelated textures as a new generation Picasso painting?

No...
Honestly, I never knew anything better. I'm sure that if we could all look back at old graphics we would say they sucked. I knew that the N64's graphics were pretty for their time and couldn't imagine much better than it.

Control schemes are one of the most personal aspects of gaming Stratos, so there are no facts.

I can understand the framerate being a problem for some, because even back then it was pretty bad. It helps to switch off the hi-res mode, that makes it a little better. I don't have a problem with it because I've gotten adjusted to games with choppy framerates from all of the N64 games I've played, and from playing Doom on the Super NES (the fact that was even possible is impressive).

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

I agree. I wasn't trying to correct you or anything there. Pretty neat about the N64 overclocking thing.

[Jonnyboy117]

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

That's really interesting.  Seems like it would be a pretty simple feature to emulate.

[Stratos]

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

That's really interesting.  Seems like it would be a pretty simple feature to emulate.

You'd also think that it would be easy to make it so that old games on the VC didn't have the same performance issues but that sadly doesn't happen.

[GoldenPhoenix]

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

That's really interesting.  Seems like it would be a pretty simple feature to emulate.

You'd also think that it would be easy to make it so that old games on the VC didn't have the same performance issues but that sadly doesn't happen.

I thought quite a few N64 games were sped up framerate wise on VC, like Star Fox 64? Maybe I'm wrong.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

If this was aimed at me I understand that this isn't about the other consoles. But I mention them alongside Nintendo's games because they played a big role in both my growth as a gamer and a Nintendo fanboy.

The launch of the PS2 was certainly big and it did affect the Nintendo community.

I'd love people to talk about other systems in TalkBack--we're focusing on the Nintendo angle in the special. Talking about DC or PS2 games of 2000 are a nice complement.

On Perfect Dark: I own it and played through it, but could never get into it. I never liked the new weapons and their dual modes, and have always preferred Goldeneye multiplayer over PD....even when playing PD in a "Goldeneye" mode (level and weapons selection). Don't ask me why--I can't put my finger on it.

[Mop it up]

You'd also think that it would be easy to make it so that old games on the VC didn't have the same performance issues but that sadly doesn't happen.

Apparently it depends on how the game was programmed. I don't really know much about the technical aspect, but basically, with the overclock mod, certain games would simply run at 1.5 times the speed; Smash Brothers is one example. Such games would probably need to be reprogrammed to run at better framerates on improved hardware, but something like Perfect Dark should actually run smoothly on an emulator without modification to the game's coding.

In fact, if you play a Perfect Dark ROM on a PC emulator, it runs smoothly. I do not endorse this of course.

[Stratos]

You'd also think that it would be easy to make it so that old games on the VC didn't have the same performance issues but that sadly doesn't happen.

Apparently it depends on how the game was programmed. I don't really know much about the technical aspect, but basically, with the overclock mod, certain games would simply run at 1.5 times the speed; Smash Brothers is one example. Such games would probably need to be reprogrammed to run at better framerates on improved hardware, but something like Perfect Dark should actually run smoothly on an emulator without modification to the game's coding.

In fact, if you play a Perfect Dark ROM on a PC emulator, it runs smoothly. I do not endorse this of course.

I remember in my programming class they had us reprogram old games. Well, not completely recode them, but the prof had a set of older games that when run on newer windows versions would run very fast. Prof showed us how to go into the code and change the timing to fit the machine. He also said this was a sign of poor foresight and bad coding if it couldn't account for better hardware. The fact that PD behaves that way on better hardware shows how good the team at Rare was...or perhaps it was a side affect of designing it to work both with and without the Expansion Pak.

[Rize]

There's an overclock mod you can do with the N64 to make the framerate super-smooth, but it is far from easy. I ruined one of my N64 systems attempting it...

That's really interesting.  Seems like it would be a pretty simple feature to emulate.

Well, unofficial emulators definitely bump framerates and resolutions with very few issues.  whether or not this can be done while keeping up with Nintendo's quality standards and staying true to the original games is another story... but I've always wondered why it couldn't be an option (much like the PS2 offers compatibility mode for old games, but also a mode with smoothed textures).

You'd also think that it would be easy to make it so that old games on the VC didn't have the same performance issues but that sadly doesn't happen.

Apparently it depends on how the game was programmed. I don't really know much about the technical aspect, but basically, with the overclock mod, certain games would simply run at 1.5 times the speed; Smash Brothers is one example. Such games would probably need to be reprogrammed to run at better framerates on improved hardware, but something like Perfect Dark should actually run smoothly on an emulator without modification to the game's coding.

In fact, if you play a Perfect Dark ROM on a PC emulator, it runs smoothly. I do not endorse this of course.

Old 2D games were designed such that the game logic was coded on a frame to frame basis (the console was going to output 30 frames a second no matter what).  If anything gummed up the process, the entire game slowed down.  In later 3D systems, game logic was generally tied to a real-time clock and if anything gummed up the works, the game-logic trucked on while frames were skipped (resulting in the variable framerates that characterize most 3D games).  Technically slow-down is possible in 3D games and frame skipping is possible in 2D games despite the conventions.

In fact, Zelda OoT usually slows down in the water temple as an example.  This was unusual.  Most 3D games, such as Turok 2, suffer from inconsistent framerates rather than slow down.

[ShyGuy]

Wow.... Ty photo is even creepier than 1999 pictures of Lindy.

In 2000 I was busy playing CounterStrike and Deus Ex, but the Dreamcast had reignited an interest in console gaming...

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Haven't you figured it out yet from the Cho Aniki pictures? We're trying to creep you out! 

[Justin Nation]

Perfect Dark is still my favourite N64 game, so I quite disagree with the points of it being incompetent today. The controls are still excellent, the N64 controller works very well for FPS games with its layout and comfort, and the more resistant analogue stick makes aiming easier... but maybe this is more due to my own personal loathing of dual-analogue controllers. Its corridor levels are much better designed and make for better action than the open field levels in games like Halo, and its selection of weapons is staggering and includes pretty much any type you can think of.

The best feature of Perfect Dark is definitely the A.I. bots in the multiplayer mode. I know people will say that having online modes eliminates the need for bots, but I believe they're needed now more than ever. When you play online you are likely to find extremely skilled players who aren't even going to give you a chance; there's little hope of improving your skills if you're killed ten seconds after you respawn. Bots make for great practice because you can customize them to match your skill level, and even give them unique personality settings like moving really fast or slow, using only explosive weaponry, or having suicidal tendencies. Since I'm non-competitive my friends and I would never play the game against one another, but would instead always team up against the bots. It was a blast!

Doom still kicks big pink demon booty. Shame on you for implying it is archaic.

I don't know, it all comes across as rationalizing to me. The more you describe how it is good the more it seems like you're grasping at straws. Regardless of the merits of how they pulled it off or shoe-horned the control into the N64 controller if you actively play with either mouse and keyboard or the Wii-mote and Nunchuk at a minimum the N64 control is embarrassingly bad. If nothing else than for the immediate fact that you cannot accurately move and aim at the same time. With either scheme I described I can run backwards while picking multiple targets off and then spin and keep running in one fluid movement. N64... DEAD before I even began to try half of that. It just lacks capability.

I was actually being nice to PD in this based on how widespread the worship of it was at the time, so I truly went with what people seemed to more commonly believe was the best. Full disclosure? I loved all things Rare including Goldeneye up until somewhere around the point DK64 and JFG came out and then started to become bewildered. I was given Perfect Dark as a gift and I tried to get into playing it about 5 times for a total of maybe 3 - 4 hours and gave up on it. Just couldn't get into it. Totally failed to impress me or suck me in. Don't know what happened with the title that made me stand back and go 'Meh' but it just wasn't for me and I never understood the hype/worship of it at all.

As for Doom. Fond memories of the game, played it and Duke Nukem 3D a ton. If you loved them, don't try to go back and play them. I did. Crippling problem: No Y-axis aiming. DONE! It pains me so much to play it feeling like I can't truly move or do something so fundamental that I can't stand trying to do it. Basically I've found the furthest I can go back without pain is Quake since then we're to the point where you had reasonably functional aiming and control.

You want true FPS these days? Left 4 Dead. Co-operative multi-player, intense, zombie hordes, chaos, and in the one mode you get to play on the zombie side as a "boss zombie". Hard to express the level of joy I feel playing as a "Boomer", vomiting all over the survivors, and watching the zombie horde rush them in a frenzy. I practically giggle.

[Nick DiMola]

With first person shooters it is always easy years later to look at them and say, "meh that didn't really hold up," but that is just the nature of the beast. However, I will disagree with a few things said about Perfect Dark.

Firstly, the game was extremely well done for the time, the lagging framerate is really the only offender, and at the time if you weren't really into PC gaming (or had a really shitty PC like me), that framerate didn't bother you.

Secondly, I believe you mentioned that the genre has improved by leaps and bounds. I would have to strongly disagree with you here. That mission/multiplayer formula may have been abandoned for crappy Halo-style gameplay, but that sure doesn't mean things have improved. The mission structure with multiple challenge settings and shifting goals gave the game ridiculous replayability. A number of friends and myself still lament the fact that first person shooters on consoles have taken a nosedive so quickly since Halo hit the scene. Rare even Halo-fied the damn prequel to Perfect Dark (play that and see what a freakin mess it is).

Third, you mention how bad the controls are. I would again have to disagree when comparing them to a standard controller. Comparing to a mouse and keyboard or Wii Remote just isn't fair as they are not really equals. I STILL play modern console FPS titles with the wonky ass controls of Goldeneye/Perfect Dark. No movement and look separation. I was able to beat both of those titles on OO Agent/Perfect Agent settings and unlock all of the cheats in the game.

Obviously, I'm a pretty big Perfect Dark fanboy, but I will definitely agree that the game is no longer playable today (just gave it a go about two months ago). The multiplayer is definitely bearable with up to 3 players, though the single player has such an atrocious framerate I don't even understand how I was able to deal with it. Majora's Mask would've been a close tie for me at the time for GOTY, but most likely I would've awarded the title to Perfect Dark. Comparing their merits today, it's obvious that Majora's Mask is the only playable one of the two.

/rant

[NWR_DrewMG]

Majora's Mask was only the second game I ever pre-ordered.  (The first was FF VIII for PC) and probably remains my favorite N64 game to date. 

I never got into console FPSes until Halo, so although I owned Perfect Dark, I never really liked it that much, and it didn't last in my collection very long. 

The N64 was definitely my main gaming system in 2000 though.  I'd be getting a PS2 in a year (which would be my first new console purchase ever) but in 2000 I was playing N64, and a bit of Saturn still.  I'd picked one up used, but it also didn't last very long.  Long enough to eventually play about halfway through Shining Force III.

I keep thinking that I was back on this site in 99/2000 but it must have been later because I was not on the site until after it was no longer named PlanetN2000.

[Justin Nation]

Secondly, I believe you mentioned that the genre has improved by leaps and bounds. I would have to strongly disagree with you here. That mission/multiplayer formula may have been abandoned for crappy Halo-style gameplay, but that sure doesn't mean things have improved. The mission structure with multiple challenge settings and shifting goals gave the game ridiculous replayability. A number of friends and myself still lament the fact that first person shooters on consoles have taken a nosedive so quickly since Halo hit the scene. Rare even Halo-fied the damn prequel to Perfect Dark (play that and see what a freakin mess it is).

If you consider Halo to be the shining example of the genre then I would agree it has gone nowhere. Halo is possibly one of the most over-hyped and highly-average shooter experiences I've ever had. I suppose as console shooters go perhaps it may be a highlight (considering the lack of competition really) but on the PC shooters have evolved a great deal.

While my love for Valve Software will certainly come through I give two single-player experiences that, for me, blow the likes of Perfect Dark away: Half-Life 2 (and its subsequent episodes)... and if you want the killer there is Portal. Hands-down one of the most creative gaming experiences I have had in ages mixed with a surprisingly compelling non-story and a terrific sense of humor. Shoot, to knock Perfect Dark or Halo off even go back to the original Half-Life. Highly diverse scenarios and environments to work your way through and some terrific experiences to get the adrenaline pumping.

On the multi-player end Perfect Dark and any game with only pretty much Deatmatch to offer truly has nothing at all to offer. If you want Deathmatch I recommend Quake Live. Play Quake with a plug-in through your browser. Free and highly accessible. But even that is twitchy and tired nonsense... really Deathmatch has has nowhere to truly go but down for years. If you want multi-player that blows anything Perfect Dark could ever offer away I give you as starters: Battlefield 1942 (while the oldest I still enjoy its accessibility the most), Team Fortress 2 (once I got the hang of what changed from Team Fortress Classic I was hooked), Counter-Strike (out-and-out brilliant if you can stand the learning curve and the community), and now Left 4 Dead (more squad-like play against masses of enemies and your survival is exponentially more difficult to ensure if any of the other survivors die, making for a new strategy for forced cooperation).

So if you're saying the shooter hasn't evolved I think it is a matter of what you're measuring against...

Third, you mention how bad the controls are. I would again have to disagree when comparing them to a standard controller. Comparing to a mouse and keyboard or Wii Remote just isn't fair as they are not really equals. I STILL play modern console FPS titles with the wonky ass controls of Goldeneye/Perfect Dark. No movement and look separation. I was able to beat both of those titles on OO Agent/Perfect Agent settings and unlock all of the cheats in the game.

"Comparing to a mouse and keyboard or Wii Remote just isn't fair as they are not really equals"?!?! Didn't you then just agree with my statement that the controls are now thoroughly exposed as being horrible? Still insisting on playing that way doesn't make them intuitive or better... I could play Street Fighter 2 on my SNES with the gamepad well enough but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have preferred to play on a real 6-button arcade setup. Success in spite of control doesn't end up proving much. As for being able to complete a game at a high difficulty level with the controls the game was made for I'm not sure what you think that proves? I could beat Doom with the original control it gave me but the game was made to be beat with that control. If I had to try to win matches in Quake without mouse aiming I would wager I wouldn't fare so well or if I did it would only be IN SPITE of the poor control... again not the best criteria.

Just I'd wager if you still consider Goldeneye or Perfect Dark capable of standing up or being playable for anything beyond nostalgic or appreciative value you haven't been playing much (or at least much that is any good) in the genre for the past 5+ years. In a time capsule you can appreciate them but if you're out to get your game on there's no comparison.