Topic: war in iraq

[Marcus Arillius]

I'd just like to note that I think we are taking this thing with France too far by changing the name of "French fries" to "Freedom fries."  How immature and childish is that? Worse yet, our own congress has done that on their menus.  I really want people who are acting like children running our country (note the sarcasm).  Next thing you know they'll be throwing all French art out of museums, and they will ban teaching French history in schools.  There are people who are partiotic and then there are people who are idiotic, now its hard to distinguish the line between patriotism and idiocy.

I took a course in American History and we were taught back to the beginning of the church.  It was this course that made me realize that the Christian religion was basically created to control the people and take their money.  So now I definitely do not believe in any sort of organized religion especially Chrisitanity and Catholisicm because they are oppresive and discriminatory which no religion should be.  I'm not going to get into it because there will definitely be arguments on religion.  However, although informal, the show "Penn & Teller: Bullshit" (airs on Showtime) is actually a good source for information on this topic (I watched it last night).
All in all, I think religion is just something to appease people's fear of not existing after death. If you research you find that as soon as man was able to realize the concept of death and that they eventually will die, that is when the belief of an afterlife began.

[yrrab436]

I don't think religion is wrong, but it's quite clear that it can be a dangerous instrument of mind control.  Sorry, I have my own ethics, and religious texts can be twisted to serve practically anyone's whims.  The Bible was used to justify slavery, so I'm sure people can justify anything with it.  For the record I am Christian, but that doesn't mean I take part in organized religion.  As far as the war goes, it's hard if not impossible to know what the truth is.  The media can lie, and the media does lie.  Peaceful protestors are attacked by police.  Police do cause riots, going as far as to pull people's hands from their faces to pepper spray them, and chasing them down streets to beat them.  Police do seize cameras and other equipment from protestors in an attempt to hide the truth.  The coporate media does ignore this.  The government does have the ability to make people disappear.  You can't trust everything the media says.  If you do, you're handing your freedom away.  This is the USA I'm talking about, and the deception and danger are real.

By the way, I've had two professors say that Bush LOST the election.  Good thing he has a brother to control Florida.  It was so close though (nation wide) that it seems people randomly voted for the two big parties.  With large enough numbers of people that don't care or choose randomly, that's what happens.

As far as patrotism/idiotism goes, there's a fine line between patriotism and fascism.   Bush and his cronies act like a religious dictatorship.  Granted that we haven't fallen that low yet, but we're dangerously teetering on the edge.  As long as people blindly follow the news, and as long as the news remains complacent to the regime, the regime can get away with anything.  

Like I said, who knows what the truth is.

There's no point arguing about this.  Everyone has views, and those views aren't likely to change.

The song Razzle Dazzle from the broadway musical Chicago applies to all sides here (and most politicians), especially George W. and Saddam.  Saddam may be ten bazillion times as bad as George W. (I don't think anyone denies that), but they both succeed at doing this to people:

Quote

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em

Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate

Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em

How can they see with sequins in their eyes?

What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?

Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll never catch wise!

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em

Give 'em a show that's so splendiferous
Row after row will crow vociferous

Give 'em the old flim flam flummox
Fool and fracture 'em

How can they hear the truth above the roar?

Throw 'em a fake and a finagle
They'll never know you're just a bagel,

Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll beg you for more!

Give 'em the old double whammy
Daze and dizzy'em

Back since the days of old Methuselah
Everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler

Give 'em the old three ring circus
Stun and stagger 'em

When you're in trouble, go into your dance

Though you are stiffer than a girder
They let you get away with murder

Razzle dazzle 'em
And you've got a romance

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em

Show 'em the first rate sorcerer you are

Long as you keep 'em way off balance
How can they spot you got no talents?

Razzle dazzle 'em
Razzle dazzle 'em
Razzle dazzle 'em

And they'll make you a star!

Sorry if it's against the rules posting that, but it applies to the current situation from anyone's point of view.  While I cling to my "conspiracy" stance, I fully admit that I personally have no idea what's going on.

Edit:
The song isn't about politics.  I forgot to mention that.  It applies to any fraud though, and that's why I love it so much.

[sequoia]

Simsonfan, what do you mean when you say weak? Do you mean people who are insecure or fearful? People who have no will to live or cant find there own meaning in life? Religion is not a crutch for those who know how to use it. I think Bush is leading this nation in the right direction. He is not using his religion as a crutch. He is being sued for saying "Jesus" in one of his speachs. I hope the President still has his right to free speach. And if there are any protesters against the war, you try and reason with saddam. You wont get any farther.

[Gamer Donkey]

Quote
I'd just like to note that I think we are taking this thing with France too far by changing the name of "French fries" to "Freedom fries." How immature and childish is that? Worse yet, our own congress has done that on their menus. I really want people who are acting like children running our country (note the sarcasm). Next thing you know they'll be throwing all French art out of museums, and they will ban teaching French history in schools. There are people who are partiotic and then there are people who are idiotic, now its hard to distinguish the line between patriotism and idiocy.

Yeah, and I've always wondered what they plan on renaming the Statue of Liberty. I read somewhere that a politician suggested sending it back (at taxpayers' expense I presume). I go back to my previous definition of politics. To add, I agree with your views on religion. The Bible can be interpreted so many different ways.

Quote
Religion is not a crutch for those who know how to use it. I think Bush is leading this nation in the right direction. He is not using his religion as a crutch.

What I don't like is how many of my Christian friends follow Bush just because he is a religous man. When I show them very good proof that Bush has lied in the past, they just dismissed it saying Bush was a Christian man and would not do such a thing, continuing to say that my source must have lied. This blind faith worries me, mostly for the economy. And they say Bush is leading the country in a Godly way, but I ask: Does God favor the richest? Because Bush does. Read about it here. Sorry to make a direct link, but I felt I needed a source for that statement.

[kennyb27]

I think some of these anti-war protests are extremely ridiculous and in some cases anti-American.  For example, a sign being held in a protest in New York City read "I will support our troops when they shoot their officers."  I don't understand how someone can say that when they are an American.  If they say this about the American leaders, they should move to Iraq and try to live their way of life their.  If they were to make stupid statements about their government there, THEY would be the ones getting shot, not the leaders.

A quick comment on Michael Moore.  To say President Bush is fictitious and this war is fictitious is just about as ignorant as one can get.  The final count of the popular vote had Bush winning by some 500,000 votes over Al Gore.  Given that this is not alot, but guess what, it is more than his opponent.  Also, the Electoral votes were Bush: 271, Gore: 267 (note: 270 needed for a victory).  Bush carried 31 states to Gore's 19.  I really am lost in how Bush is a fictitious leader.  I believe I mentioned how it is not possible for it to be a fictitious war.  The UN declared in a resolution that if Iraq did not disarm, serious consequences would result.  This is the serious consequences.  The UN was too stubborn/ignorant to carry through with it.

PS, I have one comment on the "religion is for the weak" comment.  How can this be true when all the leaders of the major nations in the world, who some would name the most men in the world, have a religion.  

[simpsonsfan2003]

There isn't one image, video, etc of Dubya that doesn't make him look like an idiot. I can't stand even looking at that man. Atleast they could choose a president that atleast looks intelligent, in Dubya's case he's stupid and stupid looking, a deadly combination. Atleast Saddam knows how to speak, unlike Dubya who can't put together a sentence and keeps making up words.

Remember folks America started the war with Iraq, Iraq didn't start it with us. Besides if the Iraqis wanted to be liberated they wouldn't be fighting back so hard against collition forces.

[Marcus Arillius]

Quote
Originally posted by: kennyb27
I think some of these anti-war protests are extremely ridiculous and in some cases anti-American.  For example, a sign being held in a protest in New York City read "I will support our troops when they shoot their officers."  I don't understand how someone can say that when they are an American.  If they say this about the American leaders, they should move to Iraq and try to live their way of life their.  If they were to make stupid statements about their government there, THEY would be the ones getting shot, not the leaders.

That was just one person representing himself, not the sentiment of all the protestors.  I have a million reasons to be against the war and a million for the war, so I don't know where I stand.  However, I don't think anyone is being anti-american if they protest a war.  They don't think it is right.  It's anti-American to keep people from protesting.  I don't agree with that person however.  Most of those soldiers don't want to be over there anymore than you or I want to be over. They are just following orders.  I think that person was doing it for shock value.  I don't think that they really thought over what they were writing on that sign.

 

[simpsonsfan2003]

There is alot of better democracies out there besides America. Like Canada and Greece for example are a few of many. Why move to Iraq? Just move up to Canada atleast they don't start wars with people like the blood thirsty American government. No I am not Canadian either.

[kennyb27]

Quote
Atleast they could choose a president that atleast looks intelligent, in Dubya's case he's stupid and stupid looking, a deadly combination.

[sarcasm]Yeah, that is what a Diploma from Yale and a MBA from Harvard Business school will do for you. [/sarcasm]

Quote
Besides if the Iraqis wanted to be liberated they wouldn't be fighting back so hard against collition forces.

So that is why the majority of Iraqi soldiers (excluding the Republican Guard) has laid down their weapons to the coalition forces.

Quote
There is alot of better democracies out there besides America. Like Canada and Greece for example are a few of many. Why move to Iraq? Just move up to Canada atleast they don't start wars with people like the blood thirsty American government. No I am not Canadian either.

I was using an extreme example to coincide with this protestors extremely ignorant sign.

Oh, what am I doing, this is futile...

[thecubedcanuck]

Quote
There is alot of better democracies out there besides America. Like Canada

I am Canadian and it is obvious to me that your head is quite far up your ass.
We are no better than the USA in Canada, out countries are very similar, we both have our advantages and disadvantages.
We have an extremely Liberal government in Canada, one that so desperately wants to be seen as bi-partisan that is has become afraid to make even the simplist of decisions.
The war in IRAQ , and decision of our government in Canada is a clear example. Our government has stated that is will not support a war without UN sanctioning. The ironic part is we have troops that are part of an exchange program with the British, troops that are already fighting along side the Americans in Iraq. Our government refuses to tell Canadian public where these troops even are, saying only that they "may" be fighting, and that they "may" be in Iraq, all the while the British have said, "Yes, here they are."  Again, clearly dodging the truth in an attempt to maintain an unrealistic feeling of moral superiority.
I love my country and would fight to protect it, but I refuse to back the decisions it has made in regards to the war in Iraq. I for one feel we have stabbed the Americans in the back on this, that we have walked away from our closest ally and neighbour, just to avoid critisism on the global front. IMO it was a cowardly act.
God bless to the troops fighting over there, and to my friends in the US, please remember, some of us still stand with you.

[The Omen]

 Thanks for that, cubedcanuck, I really am thankful that at least one person feels what we(US) are doing is right.  PROACTIVE.....thats all we can do.   I'm expecting to be called on myself any day now, so I appreciate the support.

[simpsonsfan2003]

"Operation Iraqi Freedom" is a joke, all America is going to do is murder Saddam and set up a puppet government with a leader that is in our best interest. We've done it before. I doubt Saddam is connected with Al Qaeda, the American government lies like in Vietnam http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html I don't trust anything the government says because they are liers.

-SimpsonsFan2003

[kennyb27]

Simpsonsfan2003, all governments make up stories, it is called "wagging the dog."  And, to tell you the truth, they need to do it.  There is no way the government can release all the information they get, not only would the citizens think the world is going to end and create utter chaos, but half of it would create rumors so false that the government would have to explain half of it.  About the US going in to murder Saddam:  the government would not do this, they would face opposition from the entire world and would not be placed on the same level of respect.  They will continue precise-bombing to cripple the regime, and if Saddam outlives this, he will be sent to either an International War-Crimes Tribunal or the American War Tribunal.  If we have the chance to capture him or murder him, the chance to capture will be taken.

[cubefreak123]

well said kenny i agree with u 100%

[Marcus Arillius]

Troops have found camps where they have been manufacturing ricin, a toxin, as well as other chemical and biological agents.  They say there have been evidence that Al qaeda and another terrorist group that I think was named Al sar Islam, or something to that nature were operating the site.  I don't know about the rest of you, but this is definitely swaying me more toward the Pro-war slot.  That is the stuff the U.S. government probaly knew but couldn't tell us.  

[The Omen]

Quote
I don't trust anything the government says because they are liers.

So do you trust the Iraqi goverment then?  If the U.S. goverment told us everything, we would have mass riots all over the country.  People can only handle so much info.  Like for instance, the cuban missile crisis.  We were within a couple of hours of Nuclear war, should they have told all of the world?  Of course not.  Panic stricken people running around thinking the world is coming to an end would be the last thing you want, as they would feel they have nothing to lose.

[simpsonsfan2003]

HAHAHAHAHA American troops shot and killed Iraqi women and children HAHAHAHA OMG HAHAHAHA They need to kill more children though, it makes American seem like a damn fine country.

-SimpsonsFan2003

Don't delay abort a baby today!

[manunited4eva22]

....and you think your credibility rises by doing that?

[kennyb27]

Quote
HAHAHAHAHA American troops shot and killed Iraqi women and children HAHAHAHA OMG HAHAHAHA They need to kill more children though, it makes American seem like a damn fine country.

Um...let me explain the situation.  First off, remember a couple days ago, when an Iraqi civilian waved down a group of American soldiers and then set off a bomb on his person, killing 4 US soldiers (btw, just to show exactly how sick this regime is, this--I'll be PC here--homicide bomber earned some $30,000--US dollars--to his family for this horrific crime).  Now, not only did this incident heighten the security around bases but also the awareness of the Marines around Iraq.  Ok, back to the situation at hand.  This van was approaching the US base/checkpoint, they were given due warnings to stop and a warning shot was fired over them.  They continued driving without any indication that they received this warning.  Again, the soldiers tried to contact them to tell them to stop and another warning shot fired.  In fact, the Marines followed the book on this, they went down and did everything they needed to do, probably a bit more, and still the van crossed the checkpoint.  Then, obviously with all options run out (what if this van was full of more kamikaze civilians or soldiers?), the Marines were forced to shoot it for their own safety.  My point is that this "attack" on the van was not the first and only option, I guarrantee you that it was plan Z if not lower.

[kennyb27]

Oh, I thought I would add this quote which is pertinent to this part of history.

Upon asked who is one of the greatest geniuses that the world has ever seen, who would your answer be?

Mine would be Albert Einstein--in a second.  So here is one of his quotes just to toss into the mix:
"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

[Gamer Donkey]

Quote
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction... The chain reaction of evil—hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars—must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness of annihilation.

That was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Sure this war will rid the world of Saddam Hussein, but then what. Al Queda has already been recruiting more people because of this war. Arabs are just becoming more anti-American. I don't think Bush realizes this. He rushed into this war avoiding all diplomacy and ignoring cultures in the Middle East not to mention lessons of the past. IMO I beleive he did it to boost his image and to clear his father's name(I've heard in this thread "Why didn't we finish this 12 years ago?"), not to mention ensure re-election. In his second term he will continue to favor big business and the rich only to send this beautiful country into economic despair. I end with another quote I think needs no explanation.

Quote
When we exchange our freedoms for security, we are in danger of losing both.

— Ben Franklin

[The Omen]

Quote
HAHAHAHAHA American troops shot and killed Iraqi women and children HAHAHAHA OMG HAHAHAHA They need to kill more children though, it makes American seem like a damn fine country.

Where do you reside?  I certainly hope it's not in the U.S..  If you do, i'll personally pay for your one way ticket out of here.

[kennyb27]

Quote
Arabs are just becoming more anti-American. I don't think Bush realizes this. He rushed into this war avoiding all diplomacy and ignoring cultures in the Middle East not to mention lessons of the past. IMO I beleive he did it to boost his image and to clear his father's name(I've heard in this thread "Why didn't we finish this 12 years ago?"), not to mention ensure re-election.

Arabs are becoming more anti-American, and why wouldn't they.  When WWII started, the whole of the western world (yeah, America was even before it was involved in the war) was anti-German.  This is not new, the Arabs are becoming anti-American because we recognized the need of national and world security and invaded Iraq, a member of the Arab League.

President Bush did not avoid diplomacy, in fact this could not be further from the truth.  President Bush has been working with the UN on this for an extended period of time, since the beginning of the his term (and President Clinton, who never acted on anything concerning it, and President Bush before that).  Diplomacy was not avoided.  Period.

He did this to boost his image?  What about all the flack he is catching from various groups and countries? Oh, and to clear his father's name?  From what?  His father had a very high approval rating and did well as president, otherwise, his son would never have won a single primary for the Republican candidacy and would most certainly not have won the election (which he did).  Oh, and the comment about ensuring re-election, incumbents have over a 70% (past average) of winning the re-election, so unless a president royally messes up, he will win the re-election.

[MiamiHeat]

Quote
So that is why the majority of Iraqi soldiers (excluding the Republican Guard) has laid down their weapons to the coalition forces.

God help your soul. That was major BS. Remember before the war they were saying that like 4000 Iraqi troops were surredering? Yeah they did surrender, wait now they didn't their giving the Americans a run for their money.

Quote
Troops have found camps where they have been manufacturing ricin, a toxin, as well as other chemical and biological agents. They say there have been evidence that Al qaeda and another terrorist group that I think was named Al sar Islam, or something to that nature were operating the site. I don't know about the rest of you, but this is definitely swaying me more toward the Pro-war slot. That is the stuff the U.S. government probaly knew but couldn't tell us.

God help you soul as well. I can't believe you are actually even buying into this stuff. It's just a way for the government to get simple minded fools to back them in the illegal war.

[kennyb27]

Quote
God help you soul as well. I can't believe you are actually even buying into this stuff. It's just a way for the government to get simple minded fools to back them in the illegal war.

And who are you believing?  The Iraqi leaders who say they have nothing even though the inspectors found empty bombshells.  Or how about the missiles that the Iraqis launched that they "didn't have."