Author Topic: SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL - The New Megathread  (Read 354216 times)

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Offline Ceric

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1200 on: July 22, 2007, 04:01:32 AM »
I stopped reading near the middle of the last page.

I'm going to say this.  For everyone who wants a change in the Tournament rules.  More power to ya.  But like any general sport you'll get different specializations to test different skill sets.  Its like the Strongest Man competitions and Professional Weight lifting.  One has you lift a wide variety of different weight in different ways and they other is primarily lifting the weight over your head.  Both are in the Muscle Building arena.

A better example I guess would be Olympic swimming.  I mean how many styles of races are there.  You have freestyle, butterfly, breast stroke, etc.  Though at the end of the day they are all swimming.  I see Smash needing to migrate to that sort of setting.  You would have your sterile dual tournaments and you would have your rich item 4 player tournament, probably a variant inbetween, team and no team.  Then I can see an Iron Man style tournament where you go through and each tier would have a condition or twist.  Like maybe having items or Low-High team up where the Lowest ranked in the Tier is teamed with the Highest in a match.  

I also hope that if they get it fully working online that they take the time to make the tournament mode be able to be hosted by someone and be really tweakable.  Enough that I could just set it to do everything I mentioned above.  It would also be cool if they would allow the option for spectators.  While I'm pipe dreaming add later character additions to that.
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Offline Sarail

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1201 on: July 22, 2007, 04:06:50 AM »
I definitely think playing with items on shows a true Smash fan's skill of the game.  You take out the items and then  you're taking out of the most important aspects of the game that Sakurai created.  "Pro" Smash players aren't "pro" by any means... they're just good at playing at their particular style of play.. not Sakurai's.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1202 on: July 22, 2007, 04:19:59 AM »
All labels aside, I'll gladly take on anyone when it comes online with any settings on any stage . . .

so long as it is not a Fzero stage where you fight on moving cars lol.  

Offline EasyCure

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1203 on: July 22, 2007, 06:49:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Fighting with no items is the best way to see raw skill. Items tend to help the player and that is a handicap (plus quicker players tend to get more items)."

Wrong, wrong, WRONG...Considering there isn't a single designated spawn point for items, there is absolutely no way a single player can monopolize all the items on the map...And if you have trouble fighting someone who is using items against you, you don't have a right to consider yourself "pro" in the first place...

You are basically saying "Fighting without items is skill" and then are turning around and saying "Items are luck," without realizing it takes skill not only to utilize items to your advantage, but also skill to deal with how your opponents themselves utilize them...


YES YES YES

I don't like getting into debates over items because its subjective to too many different things. For example someone mentioned stars and hearts before and that it can make things unfair and suggested a match becomes less competitive but you can simply turn them off and solve that problem.

there are so many different ways to play i don't even know where to begin..

recover items: only time we play matches like this is if we use then exclusively, at its lowest setting in duals or four player crawls with 99 lives. Those matches are spectacular and show off tremendous endurance amongst us as players. In a dual its rare to actually get an item because we end up fighting over it so much that it disappears. When someone actually does get it and the other person or everyone else is at a high percentage you have to change you fight style and become more defensive. In the end the player with the most skill is going to triumph over the other no matter who replenished more health.

bob-bombs: play with these on high with two speed characters on final destination and the match becomes about who can avoid them the best while still being able to attack their opponent.
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Offline EasyCure

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1204 on: July 22, 2007, 07:12:02 AM »
(post continued)
We hardly ever hit ourselves with bombs because we're in a high defensive mode not only to guard against each other but the hostile environment being created by walking bombs

All items: best played with four players or even three because with two it becomes and arms race, but even then there is little luck because a good player will know the pros and cons of a weapon. With four players though its just more fun. And with skill you can still come out on top. throwing items is useless because every thing is caught. If you miss the catch it wasn't due to bad luck its due to not having the timing to catch it properly. You must also decide to catch items or reflect them somewhere else? skillful players know what to do and when.

With that said i'd also like to point out some rules we always play under that you can't alter in the game.

We do not ever ledge guard, EVER, since the days of the days of the original game.

We do not snake kills either. If i work hard to send a foe flying and you get the point because you used fox to hit him with his blaster then you are going to pay!

we do not team up in free for alls. When one player is eliminated it becomes difficult but we try our best to interrupt ourselves from teaming against a single player.

And lastly we never steal opponents. this kinda goes with double teaming and snakeing. In 4 player matches, you hit the one closest to you at the start and you keep on then till the end or until two players are killed at the same time. Then the two respawned players face off. Rinse and repeat.

Thats how we used to play smash and the victor was always the more skilled player. Good players are good under any circumstances. Period.
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
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Offline Stogi

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1205 on: July 22, 2007, 07:14:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Fighting with no items is the best way to see raw skill. Items tend to help the player and that is a handicap (plus quicker players tend to get more items)."

Wrong, wrong, WRONG...Considering there isn't a single designated spawn point for items, there is absolutely no way a single player can monopolize all the items on the map...And if you have trouble fighting someone who is using items against you, you don't have a right to consider yourself "pro" in the first place...


That's why I put the word "TEND" in the sentence "quicker players TEND to get more items." Also, did I ever use the word abbreviation "pro?" Your bringing up something that wasn't in my argument in the first place. All I'm talking about is scientifically, what is the best way to EVENLY judge a person's skill.

Quote

You are basically saying "Fighting without items is skill" and then are turning around and saying "Items are luck," without realizing it takes skill not only to utilize items to your advantage, but also skill to deal with how your opponents themselves utilize them...


I didn't say anything of the sort. There you go putting words in my mouth.

I have no preference one way or another. I am looking at this as objectively as possible.
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1206 on: July 22, 2007, 07:15:26 AM »
For the record, I think that items are great, and help define skill better, but I think that they appear too frequently on the normal settings.  Also, food items, as well as a few others, need to be turned off, IMO.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1207 on: July 22, 2007, 07:25:10 AM »
I generally turn off health-restoring items, if only because CPU players are little jerks and stop fighting to go get it (and know that they've spawned even when it's not on-screen)...  
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1208 on: July 22, 2007, 07:36:06 AM »
When my friend murk and I play, one on one, we usually turn off items.  We prefer it that way.  Sometimes after a few matches of nerve-wracking intensity, we'll loosen up by playing a Bob-omb Match (which is where we get the two of us, set Bob-ombs as the only item on high frequency, and play on Whispy Woods with two low-level Pichus as punching bags), which is basically just for fun.  Sometimes we'll do items in our battles, but very seldom.
When we play with more people (we usually only play one on one when we're alone), it'll usually be with items.  Of course, we're usually the last standing, each of us with five lives left while everyone else is dead.  But we all have fun playing, and they even enjoy watching us fight each other.  Just watching us is intense.

I like without items just as much as with.  Using items certainly takes skill, and there's certainly techniques that can be used with them (I barely ever use them; even when they're available I'll just grab them and throw them at an opponent or off the side of the stage.  That's why I like items like motion sensors and stuff, because I can use them immediately.  One of the few items I'll hold and keep is a beam sword, and even then only occasionally), but the two modes of play are different in a lot of ways.  I'm not going to make some definitive statement on what is "pro" or not, cuz I think the entire idea is ridiculous, but I personally feel more challenged and more engaged without items, on final destination.  Items cause more chaos, so the game becomes less about fighting and more about keeping your wits about you and surviving.  A different skill entirely.

When my friends do play with items, we usually turn off items like healing items, pokeballs, and a few other things.  Murk often turns off star wands because I discovered that Fox's shield can't deflect them. :P
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1209 on: July 22, 2007, 07:42:00 AM »
It's times like this I wish Nintendo had a really robust online set up for their games. I would love to have a NWR SSBB team where we could battle other teams for rankings on a ladder system =)

Offline Stogi

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1210 on: July 22, 2007, 07:42:45 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
Well that's all true to a certain point, but even then your omitting some items (i.e. the [star and/or heart). [Omitting some of items, any items] is an act of segregation which bring us to a whole new topic: what items are fair and what items are not?

Getting rid of them all is the only reasonable conclusion, and by default, is the only way to consistently judge a person's skill.

Or, of course, the exact opposite.


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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1211 on: July 22, 2007, 07:54:15 AM »
"Also, did I ever use the word abbreviation "pro?" Your bringing up something that wasn't in my argument in the first place. All I'm talking about is scientifically, what is the best way to EVENLY judge a person's skill. "

I wasn't quoting you, and my argument never was on my usage of "pro" in the first place (which I quoted for my own little dig at those who consider themselves to be pro Smash players)...It was on your saying that playing without items is how you judge skill, which I disagree with...

"I didn't say anything of the sort. There you go putting words in my mouth."

You did!  You said playing without items is the best way to judge skill, and that items are handicaps!

My argument here is that items are NOT objects of luck and handicap like "pro" players like to say, but instead are important tools to judge the true skill of a Smash player, both offensively and defensively...  
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Offline Maverick

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1212 on: July 22, 2007, 12:48:56 PM »
The items are part of the game and part of the challenge.  It's kind of like shooters when people complain about Snipers ruining matches, and being "cheap".  It's an added challenge that truly skilled players learn to overcome.

Now, personally, I can't stand Snipers in online death matches, but that's because I suck at shooters for the most part.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1213 on: July 22, 2007, 12:56:36 PM »
(Something I also want to point out that I probably didn't make clear in my previous posts is that I don't really care if people play with no items but I wouldn't play with you! , it's just that I find it silly that they think it's the best way to play or determine skill...So I'm not so much attacking no-items as I am defending items...)
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Offline Stogi

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1214 on: July 22, 2007, 01:01:26 PM »
When I look back at this post, I see where I had gone wrong.

I shouldn't have given two sh!ts in the first place.

Anyway, the game looks great, sounds great, and hopefully, plays great. If it has online, I can't wait to play anyone here I've been talking to for years; even if it demoralizes me.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1215 on: July 22, 2007, 01:08:52 PM »
LOL. The biggest problem with having an opinion is that everyone else has one too. And THEN you have to go to the problem of supporting it and defending it and thinking rationally and making educated arguments... all this thinking is hard work, and I'm sure a lot of people don't believe it's worth the effort!
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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1216 on: July 22, 2007, 01:11:39 PM »
GET READY FOR ONRINE FALCOOON-RAPE!
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1217 on: July 22, 2007, 01:13:49 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
LOL. The biggest problem with having an opinion is that everyone else has one too. And THEN you have to go to the problem of supporting it and defending it and thinking rationally and making educated arguments... all this thinking is hard work, and I'm sure a lot of people don't believe it's worth the effort!


I disagree.  Please tell me why I should agree.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1218 on: July 22, 2007, 01:14:34 PM »
What part do you disagree with?
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1220 on: July 22, 2007, 01:18:53 PM »
Just to point out WHERE these "pro" rules come from . . . (and I'm not saying it's the only way to play but merely pointing out this is why the no items rule-set is considered "pro" play)

The international tournaments for SSBM play by the following rule set: 4 lives, 8 minute timer, no items, with specific designated stages of play.

These tournaments are usually held for large sums of money and are sponsored, hence making it "professional" level gaming.

Again I'm just saying where the whole pro style play comes from.  

Offline Kairon

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1221 on: July 22, 2007, 01:26:13 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
There wasn't enough funny!


The internet is for quotes.

Quote

Cat Stevens
“I always knew looking back on my tears would bring me laughter, but I never knew looking back on my laughter would make me cry.â€


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Friedrich Nietzsche
“Perhaps I know best why it is man alone who laughs; he alone suffers so deeply that he had to invent laughter.â€


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Robert Louis Stevenson
“You can forgive people who do not follow you through a philosophical disquisition; but to find your wife laughing when you had tears in your eyes, or staring when you were in a fit of laughter, would go some way towards a dissolution of the marriage.â€


*disclaimer: I know nothing about the above people... though I'm sure wikipedia does!
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Offline UERD

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1222 on: July 22, 2007, 01:43:45 PM »
Introducing...SUPER SMASH PHILOSOPHERS MELEE! Duel up to four people in your room over over the Internet as your favorite long-dead intellectual thinker! Marvel as Zeno's paradoxes slow even the fastest of characters to a grinding crawl, making them easy prey for a knockout attack! Watch in horror as Nietzsche's will to power transforms him into the ubermensch, allowing him to wipe the floor with his opponents! Gasp as Kierkegaard instills fear and trembling within his foes by undercutting their very reasons for existing within the universe! Coming to the Wii® this fall! Pre-order your copy today!  
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1223 on: July 22, 2007, 01:48:42 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UERD
Introducing...SUPER SMASH PHILOSOPHERS MELEE! ... Coming to the Wii® this fall! Pre-order your copy today!


Who's publishing? If it's Majesco, I'm buying two.
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Offline anubis6789

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« Reply #1224 on: July 22, 2007, 02:16:18 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Just to point out WHERE these "pro" rules come from . . . (and I'm not saying it's the only way to play but merely pointing out this is why the no items rule-set is considered "pro" play)

The international tournaments for SSBM play by the following rule set: 4 lives, 8 minute timer, no items, with specific designated stages of play.

These tournaments are usually held for large sums of money and are sponsored, hence making it "professional" level gaming.

Again I'm just saying where the whole pro style play comes from.


Thanks, but my next question would be were the rules generally used before this big association adopted them, or did the association make the rules themselves?

One more thing though, could you please tell me why a match would need to go on for eight minutes? It seems a bit much for a one on one match (or a two on two).  I mean damn, do most Smash players turtle the whole time or what . I have known about all the rest of the rules for a while, but I guess that the time limit never really entered my field of vision.
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