Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[BlackNMild2k1]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
Nintendo could combat PlayStation by having full 100% Sega Saturn backwards compatibility. But they're afraid of it. Please Nintendo, prove us wrong.

Now wouldn't it be realy funny if Nintendo "accidentally" leaked a Wii compatible PS1 emulator, and pretended to not know where it came from or how it got on the Wii.

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

The only problem is that everybody on the entire Internet seems to think that Nintendo is deathly afraid of allowing people to put TGCD and Sega CD and Saturn CDs into their Wii, from a piracy standpoint, and they're also unwilling to allow anyone to play their existing old games on the Wii, from the greed standpoint and wanting to sell games twice, to the few people who already have those games. So people think they won't.

Which old games won't we be able to play? If you're going to hold it against Nintendo for not letting you "register" the NES games you already own, then you'd better hang NEC and Sega if they don't let you "register" their games as well! OMG Sega and NEC are trying to get another sale off of me! GREEEEEEED~~~!~!~~~~

Speaking of piracy why don't you ask, Sega, how that anti-piracy stuff worked out for them...  

[Spak-Spang]

Technically, you are buying another product.  You are buying the ROM in a downloadable form which can be played on the new Nintendo Wii system.

So, it isn't greed.  

[ruby_onix]

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Which old games won't we be able to play?

My entire TGCD, Sega CD, and Saturn game collection (meager as they are), for instance.

Just because I have those games, it doesn't mean I won't increase my collections with new Wii-inspired purchases. Or that newbies won't get into those games. Nintendo wants the newbies. And they want me to grow my collection. And they want me to re-buy everything I already have, or get pissed off and tell them to take a hike. One of those three doesn't seem to be worth it for Nintendo.

Letting you play your existing game collections on the Wii will only spur hardware sales.

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If you're going to hold it against Nintendo for not letting "register" the NES games you already own, then you'd better hang NEC and Sega if they don't let you "register" their games as well!

I won't complain about having to re-buy my Master System, TG-16, or Genesis games. I didn't complain about having to re-buy GBA ports. It's unfortunate that hardware restrictions got in the way, but I can understand that.

I will complain if Nintendo doesn't let me download NES games for free if I've registered my NES Classic GBA games with them, because they were forward thinking enough to let you register them in the first place. I did complain when Nintendo yanked GB/GBC support from the DS and micro. I will complain if the Wii can't play a simple CD.

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Speaking of piracy why don't you ask, Sega, how that anti-piracy stuff worked out for them...

The Dreamcast was dead and cancelled long before it's piracy scene exploded. The Saturn was virtually unaffected. If anything, piracy pushed hardware sales on the PlayStation, and it became a juggernaut, which is what killed the Dreamcast.

I am in favor of restricting piracy. But you're not supposed to shoot yourself in the foot or tie your own hands while doing it.

[AnyoneEB]

Spak-Spang: Except, that would mean Nintendo is making it difficult for you to exercise your fair-use rights under US (and probably other) copyright law. If you could figure out how to do so, it would be perfectly legal to play your old Saturn/other disc games and even your old cartridge-based games on the Wii. Then again, it is quite simple to buy a GBA flash cart and load emulators/ROMs onto it, but the Super Mario Advance games did quite well. I assume that while Nintendo may be encouraging independent developers, they will be very much against home-brew programs which could be emulators. Also, I assume that the VC ROMs will be encrypted like the iTMS music. Of course, I cannot really complain about those measures because they are quite reasonable for anti-piracy. If I really want to play Saturn games off CDs on my TV, I can hook up a regular computer and a USB adapter for whatever console's controller I want to use.

[Kairon]

It's hard to recommend Nintendo games to my relatives in the philippines because everyone there just pirates everything, and it's much easier to pirate the PS2...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
I did complain when Nintendo yanked GB/GBC support from the DS and micro. I will complain if the Wii can't play a simple CD.

I think you're being quite unreasonable here. You can't rail against the unstoppable march of future tech that isn't backward's compatible. Heck, I can't find a floppy drive anywhere in my dorm to let me install Civilization on my computer, and after I worked so hard to track down an actual original copy! Oh, not to mention that Windows XP completely refuses to run the entire DOS game library, like the beloved Monkey Island games, or Lode Runner or the aforementioned Civ.

But I'm not complaining. That's just the nature of technology, and even of life. Heck, I can't "re-play" my elementary school years, and its just the nature of things, lives, and treasured heirlooms to be lost to merciless time and live on only in memory. And I don't see why it should be any different for game consoles.

Besides, this is a business, and people with big retro collections are an insignificant niche. *shrug* That's just the way the world works, in my opinion.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: AnyoneEB

Spak-Spang: Except, that would mean Nintendo is making it difficult for you to exercise your fair-use rights under US (and probably other) copyright law.

Except, you know, that problem where the copyright law says nothing about the copyright holder having to furnish you with copies. You get to copy, backup, archive the media that you physically bought and that's it. You don't get copies provided to you and you don't have claim on Nintendo's VC copy, even if it's a binary match. You don't even have to go to a lawyer for this stuff.  

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I think you're being quite unreasonable here. You can't rail against the unstoppable march of future tech that isn't backward's compatible. Heck, I can't find a floppy drive anywhere in my dorm to let me install Civilization on my computer, and after I worked so hard to track down an actual original copy! Oh, not to mention that Windows XP completely refuses to run the entire DOS game library, like the beloved Monkey Island games, or Lode Runner or the aforementioned Civ.

Floppy drives became obsolete, so I can accept that they cut them (although you can still get them on new computers if you want, but that doesn't contribute to this discussion).

If your computer has a floppy drive, but it still can't run Monkey Island or Civ 1 (which is true of Windows XP), then I think that's bogus (and I blame Microsoft). The DS and micro have GBC-compatible cart slots. They're not obsolete, because the GBA still uses them quite well. The Wii has a TGCD/Sega CD/Saturn-compatible disc drive, AND it knows how to use it (which is more than we can say about Windows XP and the DS/micro), but it (probably) won't. The word for that is "crippleware".

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Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
Spak-Spang: Except, that would mean Nintendo is making it difficult for you to exercise your fair-use rights under US (and probably other) copyright law. If you could figure out how to do so, it would be perfectly legal to play your old Saturn/other disc games and even your old cartridge-based games on the Wii.

Nintendo locking out, or failing to provide, native CD game support doesn't impact your ability to mod your Wii and load it up with emulators and play old games. It's just that if they did provide CD game support, there would be no need for the mod.


Edit: And if the Wii was functional as TGCD/Sega CD/Saturn hardware, those systems would lose their status as abandonware, and you'd lose your legal right to break the copy protection on those systems' games as provided by the DMCA.  

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

The Wii has a TGCD/Sega CD/Saturn-compatible disc drive, AND it knows how to use it (which is more than we can say about Windows XP and the DS/micro), but it (probably) won't. The word for that is "crippleware".

Wow. That takes the cake.

We've got a Nintendo fan here that is fuming mad because his Nintendo system doesn't play its competitors games.  

[Athrun Zala]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
It's hard to recommend Nintendo games to my relatives in the philippines because everyone there just pirates everything, and it's much easier to pirate the PS2...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

sadly, that seems to be common in most 3rd World countries.......obviously, you can only expect so much given the economical situation (in each one)

[ruby_onix]

The Wii will play it's (former) competitors games. I'm bothered by the idea that it won't play them right (I'm used to having high expectations from Nintendo), and I like the idea of buying tangible things more than buying downloads.

When I'm on WiiConnect24, I want a button beside "Download: Panzer Dragoon Saga" which says "Order Hard Copy". And I don't care if it costs slightly more (plus postage) and comes in a new jewel case that has a Nintendo logo on the back. But I want it to be a real Saturn game.

[IceCold]

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Letting you play your existing game collections on the Wii will only spur hardware sales

Yet it will curb software sales and profit. As it is the Virtual Console has the potential to lower the tie-in ratio if that is all people use; this would devastate it.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I think you're being quite unreasonable here. You can't rail against the unstoppable march of future tech that isn't backward's compatible. Heck, I can't find a floppy drive anywhere in my dorm to let me install Civilization on my computer, and after I worked so hard to track down an actual original copy! Oh, not to mention that Windows XP completely refuses to run the entire DOS game library, like the beloved Monkey Island games, or Lode Runner or the aforementioned Civ.

Floppy drives became obsolete, so I can accept that they cut them (although you can still get them on new computers if you want, but that doesn't contribute to this discussion).

If your computer has a floppy drive, but it still can't run Monkey Island or Civ 1 (which is true of Windows XP), then I think that's bogus (and I blame Microsoft). The DS and micro have GBC-compatible cart slots. They're not obsolete, because the GBA still uses them quite well. The Wii has a TGCD/Sega CD/Saturn-compatible disc drive, AND it knows how to use it (which is more than we can say about Windows XP and the DS/micro), but it (probably) won't. The word for that is "crippleware".

Hmmmm...

To begin with, the Wii drive CANNOT read TGCD, Sega CD, nor Saturn games. That's just crazy. It's compatible with GC discs (which are almost opposite of any other disc out there, as far as I know) and Wii's own discs (probably DVD-format discs read in a similar manner to the GC's discs? Just a guess) but that's it. Can you imagine the technical mayhem in constructing a drive that can read not just those two alien formats, but also 3 deas-as-a-doornail-formats?

Also, the GameBoy hardware was being held back immensely by backwards compatibility.A big reason that Nintendo's handheld hardware has been lackluster is not just because of battery consumption issues, but also because by the when GBC came out a full SEVEN years after the GB first came out, all it amolunted to was a very thin sheen over the regular GB hardware.

Also, the GBA could only support GBC and before games due to a COMPLETELY SEPERATE legacy chipset being included. This is tantamount to including a PS2 with every PS3. The new hardware is just too different too make native backwards compatibility feasible. Not to mention that including a seperate legacy chipset drives up the price, or forces you to cut corners. Note that the non-inclusion of a legacy 15+ year old chipset is the reason that the DS cannot play GBC or GB games: the hardware simply doesn't exist in the system. The GB slot is there purely for GBA games, not for, like you suppose, GBC or GB games.

Basically, I believe that forcing backwards compatibility is a drag on the future.

For example: the Pokemon games. The uninterrupted line of Pokemon in the games makes each consecutive version less flexible than it could be, and only prolongs certain imbalances in the earlier games. It also prevents new ways to technical conceptualize Pokemon stats and data, a nd overall dilutes the experiences of later versions. I actually want Pokemon: Pearl & Diamond to NOT be backwards compatible so that they can rebalance everything in the game, re-tune the Pokemon stat system and rethink the move and ability libraries. Pokemon is, to me, a very real example of a game that is stagnating because it is being held to compatibility with its past.

Likewise, I think that demanding backwards compatibility from systems is not only impractical (once you see how it was actually done on the Gameboy, and after seeing the three different approaches MS, Nintendo and Sony are taking to backwards compatibility this next-gen: GC-similarity in Wii hardware, Game-by-game emulation for the X360 and possibly packing in a PS2 with every PS3) but ALSO holding games (like Pokemon) back and not letting the future blazes new trails.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
The Wii will play it's (former) competitors games. I'm bothered by the idea that it won't play them right (I'm used to having high expectations from Nintendo), and I like the idea of buying tangible things more than buying downloads.

Of course it won't play Sega games or TG-FX games right... I mean, heck. They're not Nintendo games, they never CAN be played right, even on their native hardware.

Oh, and I also share your urge for tangible things, I believe in having a CD collection (though I'm just getting started on mine), but unfortunately the future is moving towards digital distribution, which is actually better for most everyone in the content chain and allows for a more fluid and dynamic flow of ideas at lower cost.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
To begin with, the Wii drive CANNOT read TGCD, Sega CD, nor Saturn games. That's just crazy. It's compatible with GC discs (which are almost opposite of any other disc out there, as far as I know) and Wii's own discs (probably DVD-format discs read in a similar manner to the GC's discs? Just a guess) but that's it. Can you imagine the technical mayhem in constructing a drive that can read not just those two alien formats, but also 3 deas-as-a-doornail-formats?

As I mentioned earlier, the Revolution's drive was announced to be DVD-compatible (with an "unlocking" attachment, to avoid fees). The DVD specs supposedly demand CD reading ability. AFAIK, CD-R's, CD-RW's, and PSX discs are different enough to require a second laser. That's why Sony built a custom 2-in-1 laser for the PS2 which caused a bunch of DRE's. But there are $25 DVD players at Wallmart that can play CD and DVD and CD-R and CD-RW, and MP3, and all that kind of stuff, simply by including two lasers. It's apparently not that expensive to have two lasers (or Dolby Digital ports).

The Cube discs are just a slightly different form of mini-DVD. After they finally came out with that Cube modchip, people supposedly got it to read mini-DVD's. And the GameCube GameShark supposedly comes on a (specially written) plain old mini-CD, not mini-DVD or GameCube disc. So the Cube's laser apparently doesn't sweat the CD/DVD difference.

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Also, the GBA could only support GBC and before games due to a COMPLETELY SEPERATE legacy chipset being included. This is tantamount to including a PS2 with every PS3. The new hardware is just too different too make native backwards compatibility feasible. Not to mention that including a seperate legacy chipset drives up the price, or forces you to cut corners. Note that the non-inclusion of a legacy 15+ year old chipset is the reason that the DS cannot play GBC or GB games: the hardware simply doesn't exist in the system. The GB slot is there purely for GBA games, not for, like you suppose, GBC or GB games.

The GBC supported the GB (and gave it color even) through emulation. Emulators for all these systems will already be included within the Wii (not all games will be ported to/enhanced on the Wii, because a lot of the dev teams and source codes are long gone). It's just a matter of reading from the main drive instead of the flash RAM or whatever happens to be inserted into the USB ports (which could theoretically even be an external CD drive).


Edit: Actually, the main issue is Nintendo's copy protection. It's widely believed that Nintendo will encrypt every single download so it can only play on the same piece of hardware which you used to place your order. And if you can play the original unencrypted games, then what's stopping you from playing ROMs that some warez hacker on IRC has decrypted? But really, if you're going to play ROMs, there are far easier ways to do that than hunting down some custom-decrypted Wii versions. And then there are all those Sega CD bootlegs sarcasm. I know they exist, but who in their right mind would bootleg Snatcher if you can buy a 100% legit version for $15 from a trustworthy source at the click of a button? That's what I mean about Nintendo tying their own hands.

Regardless of the encryption/decryption issue, I do want to be able to order hard copies of the games, and plug them into the front drive. But without them being actual "new" legacy games (new games playable on old hardware, and vice-versa), they lose something. And that automatically translates into lost dollars for Nintendo.

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They're not Nintendo games, they never CAN be played right, even on their native hardware.

Zing!  

[Terranigma Freak]

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I don't buy the Kojima rumor, he's too focused right now in MGS4 , I bet he hasn't even thought about the wii game, he probably has a concept and nothing more, and he has expressed his love for the wii more than one ocassion. MGS4 isn't even finished why would they port some game that probably doesnt even have begun production from a console that hasn't been released yet to another that also hasn't been released?

Miyamoto himself is usually involved with more than 10 games at a time. I don't see how Kojima couldn't be involved in multiple projects. Just cause the console's not done yet doesn't mean they can't start working on the game. If people wait till the consoles is out to make games, we'd be sitting with a useless console for months without a single game to play.

[Pale]

Ruby, you really show some of your ignorance in calling Wii crippleware because it won't play your old discs.  You sound like you think Nintendo went out of their way to lock out such a possibility.  Don't you think booting to a disc and booting to what is essentially an OS loading what are most likely specially prepared ROMs into a specially prepared emulator are different things?  Nintendo isn't going out of it's way to screw people over.  The amount of work required to add that capability is not a financially sound decision given how few people will have those discs.

All of your other examples point to reasons where it is financially smart.  Millions of people have GBA games, so a GBA slot in the DS makes sense.  Don't be so silly in your extreme negativity.  If you honestly think Nintendo is going out of its way to ruin your day, you need to wake up.

[KDR_11k]

Some old systems can be very timing-dependent so the Wii's faster drive could cause problems.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Pale The amount of work required to add that capability is not a financially sound decision given how few people will have those discs.

But all 13 Saturn owners will be crushed and hate Nintendo forever!

Seriously, he's right.

Nintendo supporting these old games at all is a boon as it is. Be thankful that we have the chance to play them on our Wiis, period.  

[Ceric]

I want to play NiGHTs into Dreams.  I got a Saturn just to do that but I haven't actually got the game yet.  That being said.  The Saturn had a weird architecture to begin with.  I think it would be very hard to emulate.  In fact Everyone is just assuming Nintendo is going to have support for the Saturn.  If someone can link me to an article that has an announcement of Saturn Support I'll be quiet about it.

Now on the Hard copy thing.  I could see, if there is enough interest , you being able to buy VC games and then getting a compilation disc with them all on it for a nominal fee.  In fact if I were Nintendo I keep track of the most popular VC games and sell a compilation disc that cost slightly more then the games would be bought straight.  Release it annually and put in best ranked, most popular, etc etc.  Throw in some random series to peak interest.  Yeah.  That be for all of us people who won't have the means to get online.  That could work.

[couchmonkey]

Wow, when did everyone get so demanding about backwards compatability?  I mean, Xbox 360 can't even play a ton of Xbox games, that's a serious issue.  But now I'm hearing people whining that PS3 will be region locked if you're playing PS2 and PSX games, who cares?  They're OLD, and the games were region locked in the first place!  Now Nintendo is killing us all by not including backwards compatability with OTHER companies' game systems?  I mean, Microsoft's backwards compatability is still half-broken, and Sony apparently had to stuff PS2 hardware in alongside PS3 hardware to get backwards compatability working.  Should Nintendo go to those lengths to play Saturn games?

Heck, why stop there?  I demand CD-I backwards compatability!  I want to play Wand of Gamelon and Hotel Mario, dammit!  

[Smash_Brother]

I think the problem is that people seem to be confusing the Wii for the Yoshi Box because it promises emulation of older systems.

That's not technically backwards compatibility, it's emulation. You can't ask Nintendo to make their system "backwards compatible" with a competing console from years back.

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: couchmonkey

Now Nintendo is killing us all by not including backwards compatability with OTHER companies' game systems?

Yea, I know. It's amazing what Nintendo has to do these days to not be considered "d0o0o0o0oMmmM3d!". Cleaning house at E3, providing your entire backcatalog, and a $200 price point just arn't enough these days. They've got to run their competiors original cd media as well as provide new hard pressed copies of these games, as well.

[Donutt007]

So here's somethings I'm starting to wonder. I'm sure they'll set it up so the games that you download from the VC can only be played on your system. Otherwise people will just be bootlegging and selling them all over the place.

Now what happens if for some reason your system goes bad. Although I've never had a nintendo system die on me before, say my buddy spills a beer on it, I punch him in the face and make him buy me a new one....do I need to punch him some more and make him rebuy the games?

Or will it know that I purchased them and reinstall them for me?

Hell are the games even stored on the machine or will they be in an online account type thing?

It would be pretty cool if they were in an online account. Then you could go to your buddy's house hop on their Wii, type in your password and play the games you purchased.