Topic: Metroid Prime 3 Revolutionized

[Smoke39]

Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCure
2. Samus uses grapple beam to ride a rail like some sort of roller coaster

Cool!  I wanna play. D:

[Requiem]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAA!

I don't know if anybody saw it, but if you look at that giant beast thing (that kinda looks like a rhino), it is being controlled by Samus in her ball form. You can see her rolled up inside the things belly!

[wandering]

Quote
Why is Japan trying to make this so complicated

Metroid is actually made in a whole 'nother country (TM)....

Anyway, saw the trailer. Technologically, I'm not sure it looks that much better than Halo 2 and the like. Visually, it's looking pretty darn good. Like most metroid videos/demos, it focuses too much on action for my taste, but some moments were really awe-inspiring.

[nemo_83]

All the previews of MP3 I have read only went into detail about the nunchuck and remote controls.  I havn't read anyone fully describe how exactly the game controls, I didn't realize there were other issues about the buttons (outside of the fact it shoots with A button instead of the trigger).

Japan are the ones who make decisions on things like controls, otherwise the first two games would have had optional shooter controls.

In MP2, in the fight with the emperor Ing, I have to stop to press the right trigger to be able to look up so that I can then lock-on with the other trigger, then try and strafe while I charge a shot holding down the A button, meanwhile I have to press the clunky B button (that thing never feels like it clicks) very very quickly to be able to jump while side stepping, and then accidently press X turning to ball mode as I reach for Y trying combine my charged beam with my missiles.  Worst controls ever in a video game I swear to god, especially when the boss is fifty foot tall and Samus looks up about as fast as molasses in December.  It's a shame such a polished game controls like it is playing on the N64.

In order to do all the above in the fight and succeed, I have to shift my right hand after locking on so my index finger is hitting B while my middle finger charges A and hopefully hits Y when I want.  The game really out does Luigi's Mansion in forcing me to contort my hand and hold the pad in ways it was not meant to be.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The E3 demo offered 2 control schemes.  One scheme to make journalists look like fools in their off-screen videos, and the other scheme to make more enlightened folk go "DUR, THE CONTROLLER REALLY DOES WORK GREAT, WATCH ME BREEZE THRU THIS DEMO AND POST FORGET-WHAT-I-SAID-EARLIER-IMPRESSIONS CUZ THERE'S ACTUALLY NOTHING TO FEAR, COMPADRES."

If it was just up to Japan, there wouldn't be a nunchaku attachment in the first place.

Get with the program.

~~~~~

I SEE YOU ADDED MORE TO YOUR POST.

You, and Ian.  You both perceive the Emperor Ing fight to be harder than it really is.  Your FAILURE in TACTICS forces your limited strategy to over-depend and thus over-burden the control scheme.  Plus, accidentally changing into the Morph Ball?  Now you're making yourself sound clumsy (I'd like to visit thesaurus.com, but i already know it'll say something that starts with an I and ends with Competent).

Must I capture video and draw diagrams to illustrate what to do in that fight?  and no, there's no silly struggling with the controls involved, either.

[mantidor]

Echoes got (more) awesome once you get the screw attack, I overused it everytime I could specially versus emperor Ing and it really helps a lot (besides the cool effect of crashing against him, sometimes I bounced back with such strength that I could almost reach the ceiling)

Its good to hear that we get the screw attack early in this game.

[nemo_83]

I know what to do, the problem is I have to operate too many buttons in all the wrong places; it would be a lot easier if I could shoot with the trigger and not have to stop, hold and hold a button to aim to then lock-on, and thus hold a new button while having to operate three face buttons at the same time.  The X button is just in the way of my big man-thumb.  My hands are extremly articulate, I'm just finding the GameCube controller to be showing its age badly.

Also it would help if Samus didn't move like she weight seven tons.

And the screw attack is ridiculous.  I wish they would take that out of MP3 so bad it hurts.  I hate it, half the time I just bounce off into an abyss or the bitch won't wall jump.  I hate it, I hate the way it controls, I hate the rhythm, I hate that it works when I don't want it to and never works right when I need it, I hate they hardly explained how it worked and I was stuck in that godforsaken room for forever before I got out by tricking the game to thinking I had fallen to my death from the other platform, and I just wish they would give her a rocket pack that allows you to just fly the third time you press jump.

[mantidor]

wow, I thought pro was being harsh, but you really are clumsy, a flying pack? lol, the pacing of the screw attack got me at first but then I got used to it, is not that hard, and is just like the pacing of the 2D games.

[EasyCure]

in an interview with some guys at Retro they said they would include different control schemes, but the only detail they gave was about switching the B and A buttons to shoot your plasma cannon. in a game like metroid where you have to continuously press down the fire button to shoot, and hold to charge, using A on the wiimote would cause less fatigue than using the B button.

in a shooter like Red Steel on the other hand, where you use automatic weapons in the beginning and can simply hold the B button to unload a round in to a crowd of lackeys, it makes more sense for the trigger button to be use. also keep in mind that Ubisoft keeps stating that you'll be shooting wildly in the beginning of the game because you'll have to, and as the game progresses and you get used to the controls, youll be pulling off more precise shots, which means less time on the trigger. that also means that even if you arent getting used to the aiming in the game, you're being forced to get better only becuase you'll have fewer rounds to shoot off.

[nemo_83]

The screw attack never worked smoothly in Prime like the wall jump in Batman on NES, or Megaman, or even Sunshine on GCN.  It plain sucks as far as I'm concerned, it sucks as bad as the way you have to press B twice to jump fast while side stepping; half the time it doesn't work and I find myself floating in something ugly's crosshairs.  It's like they developed the game on some other controller and then tried to make it work on the GameCube; and my hands have not hurt so much from playing a game in years.  The controls get so bad during the fight with the emperor Ing it just isn't fun anymore.  

The game is hard for all the wrong reasons, Samus has to have so much life because she can't get the hell out of the way (or you speed into the enemies feet in ball form losing half a bar trying move out of the way faster).  I don't want to fight cheap bosses that spin around with seven tenticles I can't lock onto cause they are moving too fast.  I want artificial intelligence to challenge me rather than the controller.  This game is the poster boy for everything wrong with current pads, Nintendo got some funny thought that dual analog control was too complicated, and they came up with the solution to force players to hold buttons to be able to look sacrificing the ability to run while you discover the bad guy is just too damn high above you because Samus has trouble looking straight up.  And they did it because...they wanted A and B to be used?  

It's like in Fzero, the default controls suck; I set gas to one trigger, boost to the other, steering to one stick, and the drift/slide or whatever you want to call it to the c stick so I have full control.  Thankyou Sega, for allowing me to customize my controls, you rock.

[mantidor]

If you want Metroid in 3D there has to be compromises. Third person is the only way to make a more agile samus in 3D, but third person simply would suck for a metroid experience, we would be saying good bye to the claustrophobic corridors and tunnels that are a staple of the franchise because they would be frustrating in third person while in first person they are not.

Still, Once Samus is locked she can dash left and right (and tapping the buttons is not that hard seriously), and in corruption theres even a hypermode that looks awesome. Samus simply can't be as agile as in the 2D games, but I'd love to be proved wrong of course.

And your bitching about the screw attack scapes comprehension, I admit the wall jump is lame because is limited to specific surfaces, but the screw attack itself is the best translation Ive seen from a 2D move to a 3D move, It works exactly like the 2D counterpart given the obvious limits that 3D impose on the attack.

[nemo_83]

yeah but the real use of the screw attack is for wall jumps (long distances could have designed to be crossed using the grapple beam instead) and I know they can do better than they did with that.  the rocket pack would solve everything because you would just keep holding jump until you make the distance or height (about the time it shuts off from over-heating) and you would never change perspective (or bounce off a ledge).  i agree that third person just couldn't work but they can make her move a lot faster, they purposefully slowed the games down for Japanese consumers for various reasons (for one they barf).    

[Smoke39]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
she can dash left and right (and tapping the buttons is not that hard seriously)

I never got that down.  More often than not I end up just jumping up in the enemy's face.

[Requiem]

You have to do it while your moving --- For example

Hold left - Press B

Hold right - Press B

It's ridiculously easy. I think your trying to do a simultaneous left + B thing-a-ma-bob, which just doesn't work.

I bet you play alot of street fighter or something like that.

[Hostile Creation]

Anyone else totally underwhelmed by the new trailer?  Looks way too much like some corny superhero F-Zero sh!t is getting in there.  The gameplay trailers look fine, for the most part, but some of that new one looked really crappy, to me.
Still excited, just doubtful about certain things.  We'll see.

[Kairon]

I think it's becoming obvious that Metroid Prime is an American-developed game. Make of that what you will.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Hostile Creation]

And it took it three games to finally get there?  I don't think so.
I expressed my doubts, but I think that Metroid Prime 3 will be just as good (possibly better?) than the first two Metroid Primes.
I'm just not absolutely certain.  This trailer cast a few doubts, but nothing major.  That and I've only watched it once anyway.

[Wackman]

Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Anyone else totally underwhelmed by the new trailer?  Looks way too much like some corny superhero F-Zero sh!t is getting in there.  The gameplay trailers look fine, for the most part, but some of that new one looked really crappy, to me.
Still excited, just doubtful about certain things.  We'll see.

well, other than the fact that samus runs/walks like she just crapped her pants, it looks inetresting to me. I was getting a bit bored with the prime series to be hounest and i was hoping for a bit of a change.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

AUGH, WEAKNESS.  WEAKNESS DEEPER THAN RIDLEY'S PIT OF DESPAIR IN THE PRIME3 DEMO.

~~~~~

ABOUT sidestep-dashing:  First requirement: must be locked-on to something.  Second, you TAP B.  Not simply "press B," you TAP B-button to initiate the dash.  Having trouble with this?  Go back to the Parasite Queen fight in Prime1 for practice.  Hell, practice locking on to the security poles at the beginning of the stage.

Causing the dash versus the normal floaty jump is a matter of how long the B-button is completely down to complete its input circuit.  This dates back to Super Smash Bros. Melee, Mario 64, Mario World, and even the original Super Mario Bros. -- Tap your jump button ever-so-lightly, ever-so-quickly to barely hop; Hold the jump button longer to cause a more elevated jump.  In the Prime games, it's not a hop, but a quick dash; holding Jump any longer causes the normal jump.

~~~~~

ABOUT Prime2's Screw Attack:  I agree the game does a poor job of explaining the mechanics.

The timing of the B-button is dependent on the relative elevation of her bounce.  There's a ceiling and a minimum floor to maitain.  Constantly pressing B doesn't work.  Pressing B near the top of a bounce doesn't work.  Pressing B beyond a certain elevation drop in her bounce doesn't work.

If I remember correctly, pressing B after your 2nd jump causes Samus to *fall* as she curls into a ball, then you press B again to initiate the first bounce...

The ideal timing creates the bouncing-ball trajectory.  Climbs up a little, falls a little, Jump -- and repeat.  The game recreates this effect well, and if I'm not mistaken it's actually slower and easier than in SUPER METROID.  Hell, if you know how to maintain flight with the Yellow Cape in Super Mario World, you ALREADY have the timing down!

Find a nice big gap with a bottomless pit in Sanctuary Fortress to practice.

Oh yeah, the Screw Attack in Prime2 has 3 uses:
1)  Traversing wide gaps
2)  Wall jumping
3)  FIGHTING EMPEROR ING, PHASE 1

~~~~~

PRO'S mICROSOFT pAINT GUIDE TO FIGHTING EMPEROR ING, PHASE 1 COMING UP.
[and I extend my thanks out to people who already know how to play the game]

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Oh yeah, the Screw Attack in Prime2 has 3 uses:
...
3)  FIGHTING EMPEROR ING, PHASE 1
...

Uh, really? Hm, it never came to my mind using it on E-Ing's 1st form, yet I still beat it easily just by running and jumping around.

I've watched that new video twice, my impression is that the game is shaping up quite nicely, the only thing I regret is that I will have to wait until launch day or so to play the damn game.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

SORRY, I KNOW I SAID MS PAINT EARLIER, BUT I USED PAINT SHOP PRO INSTEAD.

SPOILERS BELOW

YES, THERE ARE SPOILERS

TURN BACK NOW

THERE ARE PICTURES, DO NOT LOOK AT THEM

THERE'S SPOILERS, mKAY?
.
.
.
.
.

~ A Guide to Beating Emperor Ing, Phase 1 (cuz it's easier than some people believe) ~

1.  Here's an overhead view of the arena.


The fight starts off with Samus in the middle of one side, the Emperor is already facing you, and the Emperor can easily reach one wall.


2.  Here's a cross-sectional view, with the typical standoff scenario.


We know we're supposed to target the tips of the tentacles (sorry, no schoolgirls here), and we know aiming directly up is bad for combat since the angular speed of aiming slows down as you get more vertical, plus you're stationary during manual aim.  Sure, people complained about it BLAH BLAH BLAH WAH WAH WAH, but the CONTROLS AREN'T REALLY THE PROBLEM, just the people =D

What's MORE significant is Samus's position relative to the tentacles.  Here, you're within the Emperor's REACH, and he can slap you around EASILY.  So WHY ON AETHER would you insist on standing there, struggling with your aim, giving the Emperor the upper hand literally, giving him the advantage?

I know aiming 'up' is hard, and I'm sure Retro knew this too.  But look at all that space BEHIND THE EMPEROR!  Wouldn't be nice to go over there, escape his reach for once and attack from a BETTER ANGLE?  THEN DO IT.


3.  USE THE F-ING SCREW ATTACK.

Why sooo many people didn't realize how useful it is escapes me.  Use the Screw Attack to quickly, safely travel just past Empy and land on the other side of the arena.

- When in-flight, Samus will NOT take any damage.  At the worst, Empy might slap you or bump into you, causing the Screwing to stop, and you're forced to land.  This is an advantage over the Morph Ball since you can still get tossed and hurt while in Ball form.
- When in-flight, there's a very very slim chance you'll hit a tentacle and damage it.  Chances are slim because the tentacles tend not to receive damage in the middle of performing an attack.  Don't expect to use the Screw Attack for directly offensive purposes.
- Upon landing, the game automatically turns you around so you're directly facing the Emperor.
- Based on how you timed your jumps, you might land on the Phazon bordering the arena.  BIG DEAL.  I'd rather land on the Phazon than get smacked with a direct hit from Empy.


In addition to all that, Empy will often attack you during your flight, and MISS...


4.  Empy's attack missed, you've landed, you're facing him, and you see he's NOT facing you.


With the additional distance between Samus and the tentacles, YOU DON'T HAVE TO AIM SO HIGH.  The angle is much gentler, and you can probably see all the tentacles grouped together within your visor without having to look up.  But if you wish to aim higher, you now have MORE TIME to aim, since it'll take up to a second for Empy to completely turn around -- but you'll already be locked-on by then.

I happen to ONLY use Seeker Missiles to strike the tentacles (save the other ammo for later).  I usually try to get multiple locks (via manual aim) while Empy is turning around.  If you were short on time and he's already facing you, try to get a couple locks on, fire a burst, and relocate using the Screw Attack.  Using the L-trigger's click can pickup more Seeker locks if the targets are within the visor's range.  Don't waste time trying to lock on to all 5 tentacles -- you should leave the scene before he attacks -- and you KNOW when he's going to attack cuz this is a Nintendo game so you'll SEE and HEAR the cues that signal he's setting up for an attack.


5.  You've taken out the tentacles, and now you're trying to strike the Core.

I simply use charged-up Annihilator shots.  There's plenty of ammo to go around, it does decent damage, and it releases much faster than Super Missiles/Missile Combos.

You should strafe in the opposite direction that the Core rotates, AND you should be taking advantage of Sidestep-Dashes to quickly reach the openings.  The Side-Dash is something you should've LEARNED A LONG TIME AGO in METROID PRIME, cuz it was useful during the Meta-Ridley fight, and it's also useful when dealing with Torvus' Glenchers/Grenchlers/whatever they are (it's much more effective to confront them head-on than to try to attack from a distance).

It's "ok" to use Sonic Booms, you just have to be good enough to pull them off properly.  The problem with Missile Combos is they take longer to release, and they give you another button to fumble with in the middle of all the strafing and side-dashing.  Simple charged shots are straightforward, easier to time, and easier to control.


After all that, REPEAT.  If you don't believe me and are too lazy to try it yourself, PM me and I'll link you a video that shows all this.

Your ammo and health shouldn't be too much to worry about cuz you can get it all back in PHASE 2.  Just clear out some of the 'eyes' and reserve a little area for yourself.  Roll in a little circle or triangle, dropping standard bombs at regular intervals.  The mushy globby Darklings will come around, get killed, and leave behind lots and lots of replenishments.  Phase 2 is simply your chance to recover before moving on to Phase 3!  

[nemo_83]

the ing emperror is as stupid of a boss fight as the boost ball boss (i think that was the one i'm thinking of, it's been so long).  the aiming makes it ridiculous to try and target the tenticles and any time you do hit them he performs the most sick cheap crap spinning around slapping you with his phalices.  furthermore, the screw attack is as worthless as the targeting; i only end up taking a bath in phazon.  

the boss fight only highlights everything wrong with the controls, it's like they designed the fight so that is was counterintuitive to everything about the mechanics they had designed (it's like the boss was made to take advantage of all the weaknesses of the controls rather than making them make sense, which is just a suicidal idea).  i held my tongue most of the way through the game because even though the controls were archaic the usual enemy's attacks were nothing but an annoyance.  i always gave the game the benefit of the doubt that they kept the crap controls because they made sense for the ending, that you had to have these complexities to defeat the boss, but in reality the boss would be easier with just about any other first person game's controls, especially the much more intuitive and simple (and hence its success) Halo.  in the end MP's control scheme is a g1mmick, a brick wall keeping players from having fun, and its only purpose is to make the game different.  i don't want different for the purpose of being different.  i want what freakin works best even if it means making a whole new controller.  i don't want to curse loudly and have to hold myself back from ripping the GameCube pad in half.

i've said it before but the challenge of the game should be the puzzles.  look at the old Metroid or Zelda on NES, very very simple, two buttons, but those games are still a challenge and the reason is you have to search and solve puzzles.  Prime should stick to that path and expand upon it with much much much more AI (i don't feel Nintendo's AI has increased much from their first games, the enemies are still based soley on, hit me with x beam when i expose my butt).  the challenge should be in the game design and not in controlling the character in 3D.

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
i don't want to curse loudly and have to hold myself back from ripping the GameCube pad in half.

Then don't hype yourself up on red cordial and Dragonball Z before you switch on the game.  

[Mario]

Puzzles in Metroid? I don't remember any in the original. All I remember was trying to stay ALIVE and lots of jumping. Metroid isn't Zelda.

The controls weren't archaic, normal FPS controls from 1991 would be archaic, not the 2002-introduced Metroid Prime control scheme. You're just trolling there.

Quote
in the end MP's control scheme is a g1mmick, a brick wall keeping players from having fun, and its only purpose is to make the game different.

No it's purpose is to make you feel like Samus, one it does very well according to the entire world.

... and for the last time, it's not an FPS, it's Metroid. Also Pro's post is perfect

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"the aiming makes it ridiculous to try and target the tenticles"
- you tried to read my guide, and it's apparent you understood none of it

"any time you do hit them he performs the most sick cheap crap spinning around slapping you with his phalices"
- you need to learn to JUMP.  Better yet, Screw Attack to completely dodge that and many other wonderful attacks.  Again, already mentioned in the 'guide'.

"the screw attack is as worthless as the targeting; i only end up taking a bath in phazon"
- you know, you could cut the Screw Attack short by pressing the Jump button one less time, which is completely within your control.  But you seem to not like the Phazon so much you'd rather get slapped by the phalices -- also addressed in the 'guide'.

"but in reality the boss would be easier with just about any other first person game's controls"
- let's apply Dual-Analog controls.  The situation doesn't change significantly.  So you can freely aim and move at the same time?  Very nice.  Yet you still move around at Samus's walking speed, you're still running around beneath the tentacles, he can still reach you, and you're right where he wants you.  Given the proximity of the tentacles, the angle of spread amonst the tentacles are still wide enough to warrant considerable aiming time for each of them, especially when they don't all fit within your visor's view.  However, on your duey-analogy scheme, you'll have to worry about aiming, moving, beam weapons, missles, and jumping for dodg-- OH WAIT, I THINK WE RAN OUT OF THUMBS.  You're still in a dangerous position, you're still waiting to get slapped, and you still need a means of escaping if you wish to not get slapped (every attack is preceded by a specific shriek or sound. get. a. clue. If you DON'T want to get hit, DON'T stick around.).  Even with different controls, it STILL boiled down to tactics.  How do you get more tentacles/targets to fit within your view?  Distance yourself.  How do you effectively distance your self?  Screw Attack.  How do you dodge [blank] attack?  Get the hell outta there.  How do you effectively get the hell outta there?  Screw Attack.

Master Chef's gonna have a tough time without that nifty Chozo-Lumi technology.  It's not impossible... but if I can take care of that boss phase without losing more than half a bar of health, something is obviously lacking in the other school of thought.


"look at the old Metroid or Zelda on NES, very very simple, two buttons, but those games are still a challenge and the reason is you have to search and solve puzzles"
- 3D Nintendo bosses have been their own kind of puzzles since say, Mario64.  Even the Boost Guardian -- he's hard because... he's hard and your life is draining the entire fight -- yeah that fight was "unfair" [only a bit] but all the design traits of a puzzly-boss are there.  There are FREE windows of opportunity, and other windows you have to figure out and trigger for yourself.

You just failed to identify them.