Topic: Game medium: CDs, cartridges, and the future.

[nemo_83]

We all know how cartridges were replaced by cds, but maybe now the cartridges or at least their decendents are ready for a comeback.  The six reasons for this are durability, pirating, loading, rewritability, increased storage space, and lower production costs in comparison to ten years ago.  I read somewhere about the DS using cards of some sort and MS using SD cards for memory next gen.  Maybe carts have gotten good enough now that we may be missing out on new revolution in gaming.  The rewrtability of a cartridge could change everything once again.  Everyone up until know has been willing to buy memory cards for their cd games that can't be saved upon.  Cutting this middle man of software out would be great.  Obviously harddrives are not the answer as MS themselves are not going to have one in X2.  I'm a fan of the harddrive; especially in online games, but if each game unit can double as its own memory card then we have no problem at all as long as there is room for things such as level creation, recorded events, leveling, online stats, budy lists, and general saves.  People just don't realize the conveniances that can be gained by going to some form of cartridge.  

I'm not sure people would be accepting of it at first since they all love their slow fragile cds and dvds.  If the cost of development has gone down considerably then why not go back to the carts?  Plus getting rid of the whole memory card issue will save Nintendo from making anymore cards with unsufficient amounts of space to save a season on a huge franchise launch title like Madden.

[vudu]

er-hem....

[Koopa Troopa]

Well, cartridges have never been re-writable. They just had some kind of small, volatile, RAM-like memory inside the cart shell (with a small battery to keep the data from going away) Things like SD cards aren't going to be used for games(except as a memory card device) anytime soon, static rewritable media like that is unholy expensive.

[Ian Sane]

The ideal game medium is something that is re-writable, durable, can be made in multiple storage capacities to allow for bigger games, and has zero load times.  Cartridges fit that description pretty well assuming they don't need a battery for saving.  I don't think the GBA games use batteries to save.  Does anyone know exactly how that works?

Like Koopa said that sort of medium is too expensive but one could assume that when the price goes down the medium will surely be used.  There's one problem though.  The price may never go down because of developers' tendency to make bloated games.

Right now the biggest games are on DVD so they're about 4 gigs which is a good size.  One would assume that would be enough but it isn't.  The developers of Xenosaga managed to make their game big enough because of FMV to require a dual layered DVD.  Even if the storage size is sufficient developers are going to always want more.  Therefore by the time that 4 gig cartridges are affordable developers will be filling up 20 gig optical discs.  Realistically they may not need to but due to lazyness and inefficiency they will.  Therefore cartridges won't become standard again until developers can no longer find a way to bloat the storage they have available and that will take a long time.

It's like how hard drives on PCs are always getting bigger.  One would assume that with 80 gig hard drives one could store all they need but it doesn't work that way because instead of being efficient developers bloat their products to use up all the space and thus bigger hard drives have to made.

[King of Twitch]

If you give a mouse a cookie...  

[Draygaia]

If they can find someway to overcome the problems of a cartridge I'll be happy.

[MysticalMatt517]

I believe one of two things will happen. Either cartridges will come back or game devices will come with built in flash memory and games will be downloaded to them via the internet.

I currently have a watch that has a USB plug on it. You plug it into your computer and you can save stuff on it. It was $120 for 256MB. (They now have a 512 version out for $199). The prices of these kinds of devices has dropped significantly over the past few years. I believe that this trend will continue until they're insanely cheap and McDonald's gives them away in Happy Meals. I mean, CD's used to be outrageous in cost and now look... (cough...AOL...cough).

Consequently there will come a point when cartridges are used again because they are cost effective & more versitle. I mean, the things already come up to 47GB... How much space does a game need?

On a side note, why does Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga take so long to save?

[KDR_11k]

Flash memory is slow. The GC takes its time to save as well.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Koopa Troopa
Well, cartridges have never been re-writable. They just had some kind of small, volatile, RAM-like memory inside the cart shell (with a small battery to keep the data from going away) Things like SD cards aren't going to be used for games(except as a memory card device) anytime soon, static rewritable media like that is unholy expensive.

IIRC the Atari Jaguar has an EPROM burner integrated into it so it actually could rewrite anything on EPROM-based cartridges.

You don't neccesarily need to have the whole cart be rewritable either, the data could be stored on something permanent and the executable could be on a smaller rewritable chip, that way you could patch a buggy binary.

[Koopa Troopa]

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IIRC the Atari Jaguar has an EPROM burner integrated into it so it actually could rewrite anything on EPROM-based cartridges.

Well, I assumed we were talking about the truly successful cartridge based machines

True, EPROM is re-writable but after a while it degrades. I don't remember the estimates, though. It wasn't a very big number. I'll say 1000 re-writes to be fair,  that just won't do for save files and such, I'm in a six person family who all play and save games fairly regularly; we would quickly exhaust that number.

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You don't neccesarily need to have the whole cart be rewritable either, the data could be stored on something permanent and the executable could be on a smaller rewritable chip, that way you could patch a buggy binary.

Oh hell no. The last thing I want is console developers to have the option of releasing buggy code. No thanks. It'll be abused just like it is on the PC.

A cartridge with a large, static storage for Code and Data with some sort of re-writable media for save files would get the job done.   Hell, forget the re-writable stuff altogether, just give us memory cards, or even better a HDD.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Koopa Troopa

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IIRC the Atari Jaguar has an EPROM burner integrated into it so it actually could rewrite anything on EPROM-based cartridges.

Well, I assumed we were talking about the truly successful cartridge based machines

True, EPROM is re-writable but after a while it degrades. I don't remember the estimates, though. It wasn't a very big number. I'll say 1000 re-writes to be fair,  that just won't do for save files and such, I'm in a six person family who all play and save games fairly regularly; we would quickly exhaust that number.

Its actually closer to 100,000. Several Jaguar games used them for save features, and I've never even heard of one crapping out. That's more than I can say for battery backups.

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You don't neccesarily need to have the whole cart be rewritable either, the data could be stored on something permanent and the executable could be on a smaller rewritable chip, that way you could patch a buggy binary.

Oh hell no. The last thing I want is console developers to have the option of releasing buggy code. No thanks. It'll be abused just like it is on the PC.

A cartridge with a large, static storage for Code and Data with some sort of re-writable media for save files would get the job done.   Hell, forget the re-writable stuff altogether, just give us memory cards, or even better a HDD.

They seem more than willing to release buggy code as it is. Ever play NCAA 2k3 basketball for the Cube? That thing has so much bad code its pathetic.  

[Ian Sane]

"They seem more than willing to release buggy code as it is. Ever play NCAA 2k3 basketball for the Cube? That thing has so much bad code its pathetic."

Keep in mind that NCAA 2K3 is a multiplatform release.  Odds are one of the versions was decent and then was lazily ported to the other consoles.

With PC games virtually every game is released in an unfinished buggy state.  The model for PC gaming is to set a release date and release the game at that date as it is and use patches to fix any problems.  There are buggy console games but usually they aren't the high selling classics.  Buggy console games usually bomb.

"Several Jaguar games used them for save features, and I've never even heard of one crapping out. "

That's probably because no one has consistently played a Jaguar for any significant period of time.

[Koopa Troopa]

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Its actually closer to 100,000. Several Jaguar games used them for save features, and I've never even heard of one crapping out. That's more than I can say for battery backups.

I may be mistaken then. I really don't think it is 100,000; I distinctly remember thinking, "That's it?" When I found it researching related materials.

I think Ian covered the "crap out" comment rather well, I have nothing to add

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They seem more than willing to release buggy code as it is. Ever play NCAA 2k3 basketball for the Cube? That thing has so much bad code its pathetic.

No, I haven't played it. Who made it? Anyway, buggy console games are currently few and far between, the ones that are buggy(especially to the point of inplayability,) are generally bad games anyway. The problem with "patching" games is that developers can meet there deadlines, and it doesn't matter if the game is riddled with bugs, they can just patch it later. It encourages sloppy work, and more importantly it lets those jackass publishers save a buck while giving us an unfinished product.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Koopa Troopa

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Its actually closer to 100,000. Several Jaguar games used them for save features, and I've never even heard of one crapping out. That's more than I can say for battery backups.

I may be mistaken then. I really don't think it is 100,000; I distinctly remember thinking, "That's it?" When I found it researching related materials.

I think Ian covered the "crap out" comment rather well, I have nothing to add

I'm 100% positive the PROMs used in the Jaguar carts were warrantied to survive 100,000+ rewrites.

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They seem more than willing to release buggy code as it is. Ever play NCAA 2k3 basketball for the Cube? That thing has so much bad code its pathetic.

No, I haven't played it. Who made it? Anyway, buggy console games are currently few and far between, the ones that are buggy(especially to the point of inplayability,) are generally bad games anyway. The problem with "patching" games is that developers can meet there deadlines, and it doesn't matter if the game is riddled with bugs, they can just patch it later. It encourages sloppy work, and more importantly it lets those jackass publishers save a buck while giving us an unfinished product.

Sega made it.  

[Koopa Troopa]

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I'm 100% positive the PROMs used in the Jaguar carts were warrantied to survive 100,000+ rewrites.

I'll take your word for it. It has been a while since I read about it.

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Sega made it.

No kidding? Well, that is disturbing. But all the more reason for me to be disinclined to accept "patchable" console games.

[KDR_11k]

Isn't SEGA known for buggy software (coughSonicAdventurecough)?

I'm not sure, but wasn't EPROM only writable once and EEPROM the stuff you could rewrite?

[jasonditz]

EEPROMs are a type of EPROM (Erasable programmable read-only memory). The type in the Jaguar carts were EEPROMs though, because they were electrically erasable, as opposed to having to expose them to ultraviolet light like the older ones.

[manunited4eva22]

If it degrades in about 1,000 writes, my BIOS would be in complete crap right now.

As for cartridges, it's going to take some time, so don't get into too much of a hurry.

KDR, yes you are right that current flash is slow.  However, often times this is due to the relatively slow speed of USB or the built in bus, and if these chips were perhaps put in direct links on a faster bus, we could see much more noticable results.

Either way, carbon nanotubes will solve that problem (scaling to 1Thz)

[KDR_11k]

Did you really upgrade your BIOS over 1000 times? Changing the settings just changes a small, battery-powered RAM (CMOS), not the ROM.

[jasonditz]

I can't even imagine altering CMOS 1000 times, unless you're swapping out chips and testing to see which can handle an overclocking or something...

[KDR_11k]

Well, the CMOS should get updated every second by the internal clock...

[Edisim]

it seems unlikely that console games will go back to using cartridges. it just costs more than cds and dvds. but if handhelds were to ever go with mini-cds or mini-dvds, a nice alternative to having memory cards and the associated hardware being built into the system would be magnetic striped cards. Bus passes, credit cards, and some key cards use mag stripes to write and read data. my guess is that it's pretty cheap... though i have no idea how much information can be stored on one... probably not enough to save large games, but maybe enough for simple ones.. hell, if it could work, maybe game companies could offer special cheat cards or bonus cards for registering the game or as part of some promo..

[Koopa Troopa]

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it seems unlikely that console games will go back to using cartridges. it just costs more than cds and dvds.

Prices are always coming down and the fact of the matter is cartidges are a superior format in everyway (except storage space)

[Shift Key]

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the fact of the matter is cartidges are a superior format in everyway (except storage space)

Expect this to change as the technology improves and the cost and capacity reduce for the cartridge descendants like flash memory and memory sticks. Already the capacity of Compact Flash has reached 1GB for around US$200 (which ain't cheap, but its decent considering how fast the technology is advancing) and it will only get better for the consumer.

And also cases of "CR-rot" will arise down the track - they say its a manufacturing problem in a minority of discs, but until they have some sort of test to prove they will last a hundred years, I'll give them ten or fifteen years, 25 tops.

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magnetic striped cards

NONONONONONO! Magnetic strips are being made redundant by wireless technology ( just gooogle RFID to find out the applications involved - such as bus passes or credit cards) so I see no need to revive the dead so to speak. If you want to be really tech-savvy there could be a wireless memory card that does not need to be connected directly to the console, but instead is a trendy keychain unit just smaller than the Gamecube memory card, which communicates with the system to save and read data from its storage. It could howeverbe more expensive and impractical than a normal memory card, but who knows what 2006 holds?

[Koopa Troopa]

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Expect this to change as the technology improves and the cost and capacity reduce for the cartridge descendants like flash memory and memory sticks. Already the capacity of Compact Flash has reached 1GB for around US$200 (which ain't cheap, but its decent considering how fast the technology is advancing) and it will only get better for the consumer.

Yup, things are coming along very nicely. I really can't wait until Cartridges become cost effective and high capacity, and rip optical media a new one. I hate CDs/DVDs with a passion; the sooner carts come back the better.  

[manunited4eva22]

Huh?  You hate optical media?  Is there some kind of great reason why they are so horrible?  What about magnetic media?  For the hell of it, what about vinal?
Optical media is in no way a horrible thing, and wireless or not, magnetic strips still work.  

Ever heard of MRAM?  tiny magnetic discs that at a lower capacity are dozens of times faster than current ram.  When capacity is increased they may develop nicely.

I may not like the fact that whoever was in charge of the latest optical generation decided to ditch the cd coverings ala the floppies, but I don't find anything horrible about them.  Fact is that I can destroy a flash drive just as easily as a cd.

I don't like getting into debates over this stuff, but optics in one way or another will have a future in computing.  Be it an optical processor, optical media, or god knows what else, there remains a place for it.

I don't really plan on debating this stuff, as I really don't care whether for some reason you like cartridges more than cds, but here is an interesting thing about rotation.

A university recently found that if a computer is rotated at about 33RPM (guess what vinyl spins at), that speed of rotation apparently allows for computers to run at a faster speed than when held still.

Another thing about current Flash RAM.  Current Flash memory does not allow for seak times fast enough to compete with optical memory.  The whole flash idea is somewhat devoid in theory because it was never made for large file movement.  Have you ever tried to download an entire 4GB flash drive? It takes well over 15-20 minutes.  The bus is just too slow.

One more thing;  before flash can become reasonably priced (Less than a dollar/gigabyte) It has to undergo many, many, die shrinks, find new ways to squelch heat, and also a way for it to be better mass produced.  The fact is that a silicon wafer will always cost more than a barrel of dye.

[Shift Key]

Don't get me wrong - I still love CDs. I play my discman at any opportunity I can get, do occasional backups to CDs (soon DVDs curse you garbage on my harddrive) and have 'coasters' on my desk too

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A university recently found that if a computer is rotated at about 33RPM (guess what vinyl spins at), that speed of rotation apparently allows for computers to run at a faster speed than when held still.

How on earth did they come to the decision to try this out?

[Koopa Troopa]

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Huh? You hate optical media? Is there some kind of great reason why they are so horrible?

Its slow. Its easily damaged, and even more easily obstructed by something as simple as a finger print. Its slow. It moves. Its slow.

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Ever heard of MRAM? tiny magnetic discs that at a lower capacity are dozens of times faster than current ram. When capacity is increased they may develop nicely.

Yes, I've heard of it. And I think it is really impressive. But it was supposed to begin taking over DRAM starting 2004ish. I haven't heard much about it. I realize that media switches take time, but there hasn't even been any buzz around tech communities.

However, I fail to see how this has anything to do with my hating CDs/DVDs.  


Holographic memory... now there is something I can live with

[chrisb]

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Originally posted by: Koopa Troopa

I may be mistaken then. I really don't think it is 100,000; I distinctly remember thinking, "That's it?" When I found it researching related materials.

EPROMs (Erasable Programmable ROM) can be rewritten about 1,000 times. However, EPROMs need to be erased by exposure to a certain frequency of light via a quartz window, not exactly practical for this sort of thing.

You're likely thinking of an EEPROM (Electrically Erasable Programmable ROM), which can be rewritten, depending on the specs of the particular chip, anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 times. I'd say 10,000 saves is most likely enough.

[xts3]

Consoles will never, ever, ever go back to cartridges.  Optical media is superior in storage capacity and cost effectiveness.  This is the sole reason why Nintendo lost their #1 position in the video game market is because they didn't go with a key game-making tech that all developers wanted --> CD ROM/optical media that gave 10X more storage space and allowed for games like Final Fantasy VII with the CG.  You couldn't do games like FF VII for the N64 and thats why the N64 like the GC today has a supreme lack of RPG's is because it's storage media still stinks in capacity compared to the PS2 and xbox.  Final fantasy X took up 4 GIGS easy, a GC mini-disc is 1.5GIG a single DVDROM has 2x the storage capacity of a GC disc, thats nothing to be proud of as a GC owner.  Nintendo keeps making dumb mistakes like this.

[Koopa Troopa]

Xts3, shut up. If you bothered to read anything in this thread you'd find that solid state media (cartridges) are becoming cost effective AND high capacity. And, aside from those two factors, carts are superior in every way, and once those factors are resolved carts are gonna hit you so hard it'll break yo mama's hip, son.

So, why don't you take your misinformed self to an XBox or PS2 forum where your ill-informed ramblings will be accepted as knowledge.  

[xts3]

Whatever koopa, look at gaming history.  The the sole reason Nintendo lost to the PS1 was because they went with carts which had inferior storage capacity.  The fact is if carts were so cost effective and space efficient all the next generation systems would have them because they'd be infinitely much harder to pirate.  Xbox2 and PS3 are not going to have carts, maybe carts will become cheap enough but I really doubt they'll be cheap enough by the time revolution roles around and HD-DVD and blu-ray optical disc technology is around the corner which doubles if not quadruples optical disc capacities from 15 to 30GB+  You're neglecting whats on the horizon with optical media when you start talking about cartridges.  The fact is no next gen system (XBOX2, PS3, "NGC2") will have carts.  I can guarantee you that as having talked with developers in the industry.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: xts3
 This is the sole reason why Nintendo lost their #1 position in the video game market is because they didn't go with a key game-making tech that all developers wanted --> CD ROM/optical media that gave 10X more storage space and allowed for games like Final Fantasy VII with the CG.  You couldn't do games like FF VII for the N64 and thats why the N64 like the GC today has a supreme lack of RPG's is because it's storage media still stinks in capacity compared to the PS2 and xbox.

I finally figured out what was so misinformed about your post(s).  I agree that Nintendo lost its hold on the industry largely because of the media it chose.  However, I love the way you prove yourself so ignorant as always citing Final Fantasy as the example for everything.  The Gamecube has no FF games because of its smaller disc size, huh?  Damn, maybe I should get an Xbox and play FF there because it uses DVD roms.  If you knew anything, you'd know that FF is Playstation exclusive period.  It is the politics of the industry and not disc size that makes sure this game is not truly gracing the Gamecube and not on the Xbox.  Do you own Resident evil or Metal Gear solid?  I'm guessing not.  If you did, you'd know they both came on two discs.  What is more, they both retailed for 40 USD (as opposed to the standard 50).  Apparently cost of another disc is not a factor and according to history actually makes the game cheaper.

[xts3]

Odi,

I did not mean final fantasy or multi-disc issue was not the sole reason I'm saying its an additional reason when you consider porting to another platform and just another negative hit the GC doesn't need.  Esp when the primary platform the game was on was on a single disc.

[odifiend]

xts3,
in both threads where I've read your comments you are always citing RPGs as what the Gamecube is missing out on due to storage space.  I do not deny that disc size is another factor, but it is apparently a none issue for developers who give half a sh!t.  Resident Evil (which has a hell of a lot of FMV or CG) came out within the first year of the Gamecube so this problem was remedied early.  And I bet it would be easier for a game developper to split a game up rather than do a crappy compression then blame it on small disc size.