Author Topic: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now  (Read 25871 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« on: March 07, 2004, 04:38:30 PM »
Please use this thread to discuss my new editorial, "Don't Leave Me Now".  You can read it here.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2004, 04:45:58 PM »
I love PGC, and I like you a lot, Johnny, but in all honesty I hate your editorials. :\ It's not just that I disagree with you're saying, it's that I feel you're misjudging a lot of the things you're talking about. Grey Ninja felt so strongly about this in regards to your last editorial that he actually left PGC altogether.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2004, 05:00:48 PM »
I'm not out to please anyone by writing these articles.  I think there are some serious problems at Nintendo, and I'm trying to offer realistic solutions.  I happen to think the attrition of third-parties is a very serious issue, and I think Nintendo needs to take drastic measures to stop it.  If you disagree with that, I'd very much like to hear your stance.  Contributing an opposing viewpoint is not flaming, and I would really appreciate the friendly discourse.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2004, 05:05:18 PM »
I didn't say you were trying to increase traffic, Johnny, and at the very least I commend you on the honest concern you present in your editorials. I do agree that Nintendo has a problem with 3rd party support, and I do agree that it's something that needs to be fixed if Nintendo wants to advance any further than they already have, but I disagree with how Nintendo lost the support and how it can be won back. I've written about it many times, though, and I'd feel like I'd be beating a dead horse if I did. My thread up in the Gamecube Discussion board has a lot of my thoughts on the subject.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2004, 05:27:09 PM »
I read that editorial at Gamer Revolution, and I too disagree with a lot of their points.  But my editorial is really a very in-depth analysis of a problem they only touch upon.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2004, 05:38:31 PM »
That was their editorial, I wrote a counter-editorial. Their editorial was also a lot broader than yours. In any case, my counter editorial sums up my thoughts on the 3rd party situation nicely- if I pasted any of it in here, though, it would be out of context, and I know first hand how many problems that can cause.
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Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2004, 06:08:59 PM »
I never would have even thought about these "problems" if i hadn't been told them by the internet. Meh, oh well. What i gather from that editorial is that you're unhappy that Nintendo isn't the most popular company to game with. Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?
Quote

I think it’s great that Nintendo and Konami have worked together to bring the original Metal Gear Solid to GameCube, but does this mean that the upcoming Metal Gear Solid 3 will also be released on the system? There’s certainly no guarantee, nor even a strong indication of that at this time.

Uh, what? How dare they not promise us something and then not give it to us!

Offline Berny

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2004, 06:23:19 PM »
Mario, you make an EXCELLENT point. Most of PS2's 3rd party titles are crap and should sell as poorly as ED did and didn't deserve. Konami, Namco, and Capcom are the Triumvirate of good game making as I see it. They are really the only 3rd parties worth hanging on to. However, Nintendo needs other games from the lesser 3rd parties for variety and those who just want a cheap game to burn time. Ugh. I can't believe I just said that. It's sad when a video game company who has reiterated that they are dedicated to making great games needs crap 3rd party support to stay alive. Well, I guess by getting diseases you build up an immunity. The bad make the good look all the better.
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Offline jaz013

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2004, 06:31:10 PM »
I read the editorial and have to say that, since I don't have the knolegde necesesary,  I can emmit and un-biased, formal opionion. But I do agree that Nintendo needs to do something about 3rd. party support. I really was looking for games like Mortal Kombat or Burnout 3, but then, they leave (the publishers). This isn't really upsets me, since I always found something that replace the lost titles, but seeing how they lose games is discouraging. Personally, I think they should have a more aggresive aproach to the market. In the Super Nintendo days, they had ads in the premium time in open TV here in México, but suddendly, they stoped and only had ads on cable. And now, there are none, only for the FF:CC twice a week (during a mexican gaming TV show). Microsoft and even Nokia had (althought really shortly) ads in open tv.

Maybe the answer really relays in "having the example", release games in every posible category even when these titles be "garbage-ware". I know this goes againts the policy of Nitendo, but hey!, if everybody it's playing with mud, maybe it's time to get a little dirty.

Again, just my opinion.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2004, 06:34:07 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
Uh, what? How dare they not promise us something and then not give it to us!


Konami promised nothing, you're right.  But I think Nintendo has implied many times that these collaborations were meant to build relationships with third-parties, which means garnering more support with their titles.  And so far we haven't seen that, although there really hasn't been enough time to gauge it properly.  This is something we'll have to keep watching as games like Twin Snakes and Star Fox are released.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2004, 06:38:13 PM »
I think the simple fact that Hideo Kojima has been drooling over Miyamoto and Nintendo is reason enough to believe at least he will have another game out for the Gamecube at some point.
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Offline Kobun Heat

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2004, 06:52:13 PM »
I generally agree except on two points:

1) Screw Eidos, Acclaim, and Midway anyway
2) Not sure they really need to support online at this time. Psychological effects? Interesting theory, but who knows, really.
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Offline Pale

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2004, 06:53:41 PM »
When I read stuff like this I tend to agree mostly.  I do want to commend Jonny on such a well written editorial that does criticize the company without sounding like you just like to bitch. (cough like IGN cough)...

Anyway... I really feel that the possibilities of a MS Nintendo partnership are pretty high.  Now, I know this has been brought up a lot, but its something that is starting to make more sense.  MS has the casuals, Ninty the hardcore.  MS has a good grasp on North America, Ninty has Japan....  Now, anyone who knows me knows I can't stand everything Bill gets his hands on.  But from the specs that appear to be leaking on X-Box 2 i can't help but wonder.  What would make MS go with the leading chip manufacturer for Apple?  That just seems weird to me.  MS has to know that part of the reason they do so well is because they use parts that joe schmo has heard of...  Do they have some new advisors?  Eh, i dunno, probably not.  But I do think it would be somewhat cool if next gen MS and Nintendo teamed up but still both created their own system.  MS could come up with a great all in one device, a la the PSX, and price it at 350 bucks, and Nintendo could come up with a games only system priced at like 150.  They would use identical gaming hardware so they would use the same games.  I dunno...  I'm just really getting to the point where i see it as the only way to take down sony.  Then again, I don't want bill putting any of his rot in my beloved company...i dunno... i'm torn...

edit:  I like the way 3 more posts came up in the time it took me to type that.  =P  I need some sleep.
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Offline theRPGFreak

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2004, 07:03:02 PM »
The way I see the whole issue is like this. I went into Best Buy yesterday looking for some CDs. All around me I saw XBox adds and software which drew my eye. When I looked at what you could play on the demo, they were all third party titles that could be found on other consoles. What I think catches an average gamers eye is at how the system looks so powerful and promising, until they see what there is to play. I mean, come on the biggest thing that they had to offer was Halo 2! I also noticed that there was very little to find of the Nintendo area. All that was on display were games like Sonic and Mario. This in my opinion made Gamecube look weak in comparison. Now, I am not trying to promote XBox because I will always be loyal and faithful to Nintendo, but I think that the two main issues that they have to work on that were listed in this article is maturing their look, and third party support. I think that Johnnyboy117 made a great point on how Sony's football games sell poorly just to lure third party in to take over(EA and Sega). I think that Nintendo needs to do what Sony does in this issue: release their own games a month apart from eachother, and give third party the chance to gain some popularity. Sony has done this with games like Jak and Daxster and Ratchet and Clank and has seem to work.
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Offline CrEEpEr

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2004, 07:26:06 PM »
Words cannot describe how sick and tired i am of hearing this over and over again. Yes, Some third party's are abandoning Nintendo. All of which present valid but very poor excuses for their titles lack of sales. When most of the time. These third party's are the ones to blame. Edios. Releasing hitman 2 a long time after it was released and readily available on the other 2 platform's with little to no improvements. And they wonder why it didn't sell? Lucas arts?. I don't know where this came from. I was under the impression that most of the Cube games they have sold so far are just about on par with those of the xbox. However, Im sure that both the Cube and xbox are no where close to the sales they get on PS2. So in that regard. Shouldn't xbox suffer the same fate? Midway and Acclaim i wont even bothering commenting on. Sega sports was a blow. But lets face it. EA's the big dog when it comes to sport games.

What do all of them have in common? Most of these third party's simply port games to Game Cube with no improvements extras or incentive for anyone to chose to buy it over the other versions. Its just one sloppy port after another. Nothing that just screams BUY ME. I have extras the other two versions wont have. How can Nintendo hope to change these third party's? To push them to make better ports and add extras that they seem very happy to provide other console games with? Nintendo cant hand over a wad of cash to each and every third party to add some exclusive content or make a good port. Or even to pay third party's that threaten to leave. Nintendo cant afford to do that. Unlike Sony and m$. Nintendo's profits come from games alone. They don't have an endless tower of money to reach into every time something goes wrong. They have to fund their own games and hardware as it is. So think realistically here. Besides going bankrupt trying. How can Nintendo change this trend? Im sorry if that came out rude or vile. Im just very frustrated with all the negative press Nintendos been getting lately. Some of it is valid and called for. But some of the things that get pinned on Nintendo these days is just wrong.   Sorry

Offline Uncle Rich AiAi

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2004, 07:38:57 PM »
I enjoyed reading Jonathan Metts's editorial.  And I agreed with a lot of his points.

A lot you mentioned who cares about Eidos, Acclaim, Midway etc....and as long as we get support from Namco, Capcom etc....that is okay - is wrong.  Sure, I don't care about Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support too, but when a casual gamer hears they drop GC support, it makes the system look bad, regardless whether the games are crap or not.  And I think that was the point Jonny was making.  The PS2 has a lot of average-to-crap games, but it's the huge library of games that make the console attractive to the casual gamer.

Same with online gaming (not that again ).  I can understand why Nintendo want to stand back and not develop 1st party online titles because they don't see it being as profitable.  I agree with them.  But they should at least give all the tools available for developers to make online titles, and this will give 'em no excuse not to give GC no online support.

Quote

Nintendo has to define its console’s market and demographics through its first-party titles. No amount of advertising or negotiating will make the general public believe that GameCube is a good system for Genre X if Nintendo itself is not devoting any resources to that type of game.

I don't quiet get what you were saying there Jonny.  Are you saying the Nintendo should develop their own brand of sports titles like Sony, EA & Sega do (not including the Mario ones)?  Are you saying Nintendo should start their own sports brand development team or something like that?

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2004, 08:10:56 PM »
"The idea was that Nintendo would design and manufacture a game system, market it to the public so that everyone wanted one, and make it irresistible to other game companies, who would want to sell their games to this rabid audience."

I find that's a very interesting description of the NES strategy since, aside from making the console itself, Nintendo has done NONE of those things with the Cube.  They haven't made their console irresistable to the public and thus one can't blame third parties for not supporting them.  Nintendo has not held up their end of the third party licensing agreement.  Marketing the console is their responsibility, not the third parties'.  I agree with Jonny that the "GameCube is losing the image war" and that relates directly with their third party problems.  I also agree that they should lead by example by releasing a wider variety of titles.  I've suggested a Nintendo sports lineup many times.  Improved marketing would help greatly as well.  Nintendo never marketed the Cube as any different than a second N64 and sure enough that's what it became.  They went into this console war with spoons instead of swords.

"Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?"

Grand Theft f*cking Auto.  You know the biggest success story of this generation.  The two games that have universally recieved high praise from all critics.  The two games that sold MILLIONS of PS2s.  The fact that Nintendo does not have that franchise on their console suggests how ridiculously out of touch they are.  That fact that the best they've done to counteract is publicly bash those games confirms it.

"Anyway... I really feel that the possibilities of a MS Nintendo partnership are pretty high. Now, I know this has been brought up a lot, but its something that is starting to make more sense. MS has the casuals, Ninty the hardcore. MS has a good grasp on North America, Ninty has Japan"

It won't happen or at least I really hope it won't.  That deal benefits MS much more than Nintendo.  Nintendo may be weak in the West but they at least have a piece of the market share and it isn't much smaller than Microsoft's.  MS on the other hand has ZERO presence in Japan.  MS is the one that cannot possibly secure one market on their own.  Nintendo can potentially secure all of them on their own.  Plus the game design philosophy of both companies clashes too much.  Nintendo makes game art; MS makes game product.

And I personally don't see what's so controversial about Jonny's editorials.  We all b!tch about Nintendo in the forums so why is he held to a higher standard just because he runs the site?  I would rather visit a site ran by someone who has some valid criticism once in a while than a total blind Nintendo fanboy.  Jonny is allowed to criticize Nintendo as much as we do and he does it sparingly enough that it seems legitimate and not just tasteless traffic-earning promotion.

Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2004, 08:30:48 PM »
Quote

A lot you mentioned who cares about Eidos, Acclaim, Midway etc....and as long as we get support from Namco, Capcom etc....that is okay - is wrong. Sure, I don't care about Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support too, but when a casual gamer hears they drop GC support, it makes the system look bad, regardless whether the games are crap or not. And I think that was the point Jonny was making. The PS2 has a lot of average-to-crap games, but it's the huge library of games that make the console attractive to the casual gamer.

So? Why do we want idiots to buy GCNs? To get more Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support? Hurray, an endless cycle of crap.

Offline Uncle Rich AiAi

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2004, 08:43:02 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
So? Why do we want idiots to buy GCNs? To get more Eidos, Acclaim and Midway support? Hurray, an endless cycle of crap.

Read what I wrote.  I didn't say I wanted more support from Eidos, Acclaim and Midway, (and I'm repeating myself here) but that fact they dropped support makes the console look bad.  Say you are a casual gamer and heard about that.  Would you want to buy a GC that has 3rd support dropping?  No.  And don't say casual gamers mean nothing.  casual gamers >>> hardcore gamers.  If Nintendo want to regain the #1 spot again, they have to win the casual gamers over.

Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2004, 08:44:56 PM »
But they're doing fine just now without them...

Offline Inkwell

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2004, 09:06:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
But they're doing fine just now without them...



I really don't understand when people say this. They are doing fine now but what about later;  if anything the gaming industry isn't leaning towards Nintendo. Honestly the only thing IMO is holding Nintendo afloat is the Game Boy and that could change with Sony realease of the PSP. If Sony can market this thing in any way like the PS, things won't be looking so good for Nintendo. Well that off topic...I believe.


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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2004, 09:15:45 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Grand Theft f*cking Auto.  You know the biggest success story of this generation.  The two games that have universally recieved high praise from all critics.  The two games that sold MILLIONS of PS2s.  The fact that Nintendo does not have that franchise on their console suggests how ridiculously out of touch they are.  That fact that the best they've done to counteract is publicly bash those games confirms it.




No. The fact that GTA wasn't released on GC showed how much Rockstar dislikes Nintendo, nothing else.

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Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2004, 09:28:16 PM »
In the market, Nintendo has the privilege of having a very defined image. This is because Nintendo itself (or what is used to represent it) will oft contrast sharply with the other console makers. Nintendo also has a strong fan base, which is no coincidence. It might not posses the largest share of the market, but it posses a clearly defined one. Now, with more competitors and broader audience, the video-game market no longer can be categorised generically as a whole; it's too far developed, and it's too late to stop now.

Nintendo's section of the market may not be the largest, but it does exist, and it is unusually well defined. Bending their strategy to mimic MS's or Sony's will not work. If Nintendo's next big AAA game was GTA: The Mushroom Kingdom, they'd
       a) be laughed at, and
       b) lose a whole lot of their current market share
Nintendo's current audience must be catered for first, or the company will have it's bottom pulled from beneath it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: rabid audience-expansion at the cost of a strongly held fanbase is idiotic, especially when Nintendo's market is so well defined. Nintendo must expand and win back it's image/3rd party support/legacy or whatever slowly, and that's exactly what they're doing. This generation, Nintendo has: outsourced many of it's franchises, had EAD worked on a new franchise, gobbled up 2nd parties like Pac-man gobbles dots, and collaborated with Capcom, Konami and Square. This is all that can be done with Nintendo's current rigid market.

Winning the casual gamers over is fine, but it must be done with Time and Prudence.
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2004, 09:56:58 PM »
Quote

Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?


The Suffering, Hitman 3, MaX Payne 1&2, Knights of the old republic, Ninja Gaiden, FF(The real Final Fantasy), Sega Sports, Mafia, Colin Mcrae, Devil May cry, Manhunt, Burnout3, Mortal Kombat, MGS3, Fight Night, the list can go on and on.  Those are just off the top of my head.  And why these games?  Its simple.  What is gained by not having something your competitors have?  If your direct competition has games that you don't, then you'd better get them.  Even if a game is rubbish, you still have to have it as an option.
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Offline RealmRPGer

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2004, 10:40:53 PM »
If Twin Snakes sells well, it could be a major break for Nintendo. Konami would definately seriously consider releasing MGS3 on the 'Cube, and it would offer more support. When other 3rd parties realized how well games can actually sell on GameCube, they'd at least want to put their feet back in the water. However, the really big thing about Twin Snakes is that it's still a RE-RELEASE. Meaning many gamers will feel they've 'already played it' and thus not buy the game. There needs to be some serious marketing of "it's a whole new game!" in order to make casual multi-platform gamers buy Twin Snakes.

Offline RealmRPGer

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2004, 10:52:00 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: The Omen
Quote

Honestly, which third party games that aren't on GCN, but are on PS2 and Xbox, are worth putting on the GCN? And why?


The Suffering, Hitman 3, MaX Payne 1&2, Knights of the old republic, Ninja Gaiden, FF(The real Final Fantasy), Sega Sports, Mafia, Colin Mcrae, Devil May cry, Manhunt, Burnout3, Mortal Kombat, MGS3, Fight Night, the list can go on and on.  Those are just off the top of my head.  And why these games?  Its simple.  What is gained by not having something your competitors have?  If your direct competition has games that you don't, then you'd better get them.  Even if a game is rubbish, you still have to have it as an option.


He did say games that are on BOTH PS2 and Xbox. While you do have some good examples, most are only on a single system. This leans towards console exclusiveness for a series. One console means a single source code, and certain divisions may just prefer a console. Whereas games on BOTH the PS2 and Xbox show that a company is flexible and is looking to maximize its sales. These are the ones that could much more easily be swayed by Nintendo if the right offer was made.

Offline TheYoungerPlumber

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2004, 11:09:09 PM »
I think what most of you are trying to get at is that Nintendo needs more *exclusive* 3rd party games.  EXCLUISVE titles--not just first party titles--define a console's personality and target userbase.  But how can Nintendo get more exclusives, short of providing its own franchises and development teams?  That's what the company itself is trying to figure out...Jonny's right: Nintendo needs to set the example.  

However, I strongly disagree with the suggestion that Nintendo pump out crummy games--as others have said, it would just damage its own reputation among followers.
Nintendo needs to  hunt down more budding third parties that develop "non-Nintendo" games.  Silicon Knights, Retro Studios and N-space (remember Geist, anyone?) are a good start, but Nintendo needs to get more serious about the matter.  Microsoft went on a feeding-frenzy before the Xbox launched, and Nintendo needs to do the same.  Nintendo *is* doing this, but too slowly.  Nintendo can't afford to fully buy-out development teams, and doesn't seem keen on owning more 2nd parties, but it can still build tight relationships with small developers like Camelot.  I'm skeptical of what will come from FF:CC and MGS:TS; it needs to put its full weight behind partners like Alpha Dream and NOISE but, more importantly, DIVERSIFY their partners' images and game styles.

Of course, there's always the problem of getting consumers and 3rd parties to notice these exclusive games...and that requires BURNING money on promotions.  Nintendo doesn't like that.  ED and Metroid Prime didn't seem to change anyone's perceptions of the GameCube, largely becasue Nintendo wanted to make a profit.

edit P.S.: If Nintendo wanted to promote a more diverse image without abusing money, a console launch promotional campaign would be the perfect outlet... Nintendo loves killing two goombas with one fireball.
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Offline Mario

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2004, 11:14:53 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Inkwell
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
But they're doing fine just now without them...



I really don't understand when people say this. They are doing fine now

I don't understand.
Quote

Originally posted by: RealmRPGer
If Twin Snakes sells well, it could be a major break for Nintendo. Konami would definately seriously consider releasing MGS3 on the 'Cube, and it would offer more support. When other 3rd parties realized how well games can actually sell on GameCube, they'd at least want to put their feet back in the water. However, the really big thing about Twin Snakes is that it's still a RE-RELEASE. Meaning many gamers will feel they've 'already played it' and thus not buy the game. There needs to be some serious marketing of "it's a whole new game!" in order to make casual multi-platform gamers buy Twin Snakes.

Agreed, Twin Snakes needs to sell well, and it all comes down to how it's advertised. I'd say with bad advertising it would sell about 200-300k (which is respectable, but not "wow"), because there are people who already know they want it, like some of us. But if it wants to break into the mainstream it has to be advertised well, as if it's a brand new Metal Gear game the same quality as the rest of the series.


Quote

He did say games that are on BOTH PS2 and Xbox. While you do have some good examples, most are only on a single system. This leans towards console exclusiveness for a series. One console means a single source code, and certain divisions may just prefer a console. Whereas games on BOTH the PS2 and Xbox show that a company is flexible and is looking to maximize its sales. These are the ones that could much more easily be swayed by Nintendo if the right offer was made.

Exactly, took the words right out of my mouth.

I agree with everything you said just there, TYP.  

Offline Beave

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2004, 01:53:37 AM »
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Originally posted by: Mario
But they're doing fine just now without them...


well not quite, in australia GC has about 5% market share (i read that some time ago, i dont think its changed). Hardly any places stock games, and the shelf space is getting smaller and smaller each month. It's pretty hard to find a game at k - mart or other big retailers, only EB and places like that if your lucky

I'm ready to buy an x-box cause games like rugby league, v8 supercars etc are just not on the GC

Offline DrZoidberg

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2004, 02:49:01 AM »
Beave, several PGC forum users are Australian, i'm one, as is Mario, you don't need to explain to use the shortcommings of Nintendo in Australia, it needs SERIOUS in both Europe and Australia / New Zealand ( Ocarina Blue)

as for the rest of the editorial, i'm ready to leave pgc for ever, i pretty much agree, the biggest thing Nintendo could do for me as a gamer is help plug some gaping genre gaps, i'm talking about light gun games (Duck Hunt 2 please), music / rythm games (needs more Samba De Amigo and Bemani, among others), decent platformers (beit 3d or 2d) and others. They could do this three ways, Lead the way with internally developed titles, as discussed in the editorial, OR request said genres from friendly developers / second parties (could be a bit difficult, i doubt many teams would take too kindly to being forced to make a game, but if played right it could yeild gold) OR attract third parties that specialise in said genres by offering to publish the title or what ever.

sign treasure on for s'more shumps , either top down like ikaruga, or side scrolling like Gunstar Heros (sequel kthx)
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2004, 02:58:29 AM »
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He did say games that are on BOTH PS2 and Xbox. While you do have some good examples, most are only on a single system.


More than half the examples i gave are on both PS2 and Xbox.  Not bad considering i didn't think about it.  If you need me to look at both systems game lists, i will.   I assure you, there are plenty more.  You don't dispute that, do you?

Alright, looking at The Xbox list, i found almost 25 games that are on PS2, but not on GC.  Theres maybe another 15-20 i'm not sure about.  Thats a hefty number.  Heres a few more-GTA3 and VC, Driver 3, Baldurs gateA2, State of emergency, Fallout:Brotherhood of steel, Mission Impossible,peration Surma, and a lot more.

I'm the biggest Nintendo fan there is, but even i can see that GC gets the shaft endlessly.  Are these great games?  Probably not, but it doesn't matter..Nintendo needs to have them.
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2004, 04:15:32 AM »
Once again, Ian has summed up my thoughts exactly, and yet another great editorial by Johnny.
Its time to take off the rose colored glasses and realize that their are indeed very serious problems with Nintendo strategy.
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2004, 04:21:14 AM »
" If Twin Snakes sells well, it could be a major break for Nintendo."

Bullchit, this is what everyone said about RE and Metroid prime.

"Inkwell: If they want to sell the PSP they need to halve the price first, USD450 is too much for ANYONE."

again that is BS, dont underestimate what people are willing to spend to be "IN". Look at the IPOD and how well it is selling despite its cost. To think that the PSP is going to be a flop like every other handheld is very foolish. The PSP will severly hurt Nins strangle hold on the handheld market, and if they think a hand held with 2 screens will fix that, then IMO they are even further offbase than I once thought.
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2004, 04:40:46 AM »
Cubed, you're right, it is Bullsit.  If MGS:TS sells 400 hundred thousand, it'll inevitably be compared to the original in sales, unfairly so, but it will be.  And when the media says it sold under expectations, thats what will be believed by everyone outside the Nintendo circle.

And about the editorial, i see nothing outlandish about it.  Johnny was just being honest.  I think he makes mostly valid points throughout, yet everyone gets insulted.  Come on people, we talk about these issues constantly, yet Johnny gets roasted?  There are problems at Nintendo.  Have been for over 10 years now.  They're slowly realizing this, and i think the N5 will be another step up.  But it doesn't mean the problems are gone.  The 3rd party situation is hit and miss.  One day, we're all cranked up because Nintendo and Namco make an agreement.  The next day, we're seeing Sega drop an entire line of games from the system.  Capcom 5 becomes the Capcom 2.  But Namco comes through again with RPGs -exclusive.  ...its been up and down the whole life of the GC, but they're trying this time around.  But right there we should all notice theres a problem.  Theres no stability with any 3rd party developers.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2004, 05:16:14 AM »
Hey everyone, thanks for the lively and intersting discussion.  Please continuing being civil and avoiding personal insults.  This is an important issue with plenty of room for differing perspectives.

I will try to hop in and make some arguments during a break from work today.
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Offline WesDawg

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2004, 06:20:12 AM »
OK, first I'm a jerk so I just skimmed the article, so maybe I missed this. It seems to me like most of Microsofts 3rd party support comes about because they buy it. They buy exclusives from Big Name companies. They buy nice ports of good selling PS2 games. Why else would MGS2 appear on the system? Or Panzer Dragon. Or Ninja Gaiden. Or why does Splinter Cell go there first. That's how MS survives without loosing support. Its not because of great sales of 3rd party games on their system. Its just because even if the game sells bad, Microsoft paid for the development, and the publisher is out nothing. It's not like they're doing something amazing or right. They're just taking the shot in place of the developers because they have the money to do it.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2004, 06:20:15 AM »
"it needs to put its full weight behind partners like Alpha Dream and NOISE but, more importantly, DIVERSIFY their partners' images and game styles."

I agree with that point about diversity.  What advantage is there in having a good relationship with Camelot if all they release are generic Mario titles?  Those games could be made by anyone providing that EAD oversaw production.  Camelot has defined itself as a unique developer with games like Shining Force and Golden Sun.  Therefore they should work on something unique that showcases their talents and provides some variety to Nintendo's lineup.  Mario Tennis is a good game and will sell well because of the Mario license but it is not a system seller and will not help Nintendo in the long run.  Nintendo's teams should be more like Sega with each team working on their own unique stuff.

"sign treasure on for s'more shumps"

Sounds like a sweet idea to me.  Nintendo could give Treasure free reign to make whatever they wanted and I guarantee they would make some amazing games that would be unlike anything Nintendo makes.  There is the worry that Treasure's games wouldn't sell in North America but really all Nintendo would have to do is "train" their fans to associate Treasure with quality.  How do they do that?  Include a pack-in disc with the N5 launch that has Gunstar Heroes, Guardian Heroes and RADIANT SILVERGUN on it (assuming Treasure owns the rights to those games).  That would not only promote Treasure and build up hype for their next game (every N5 owner would become familiar with them) but would also give the N5 a boost in sales at launch since every hardcore gamer on the web would want to own one to get that hardcore Radiant Silvergun game they've all heard about that sells for $100 on Ebay.  Thus Treasure would become a strong name in North America, the N5 would have a huge hardcore following from the get go that would include non-Nintendo fans, and every major game site and game mag would be signing its praises at launch because of the Treasure bonus disc.  It wouldn't be enough on it's own but combined with some strong exclusive launch titles it would be a great start, something Nintendo did not have with the Cube.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2004, 07:07:08 AM »
I think Treasure self-published some of those games in Japan, so they may still have the rights.

One big rift of opinion here seems to be whether Nintendo should be trying to win the console "war" or just be content with the market they have.  Suffice it to say that if you don't think Nintendo should have a bigger piece of the pie, my editorial isn't for you.  But I think Nintendo does want a bigger piece of the pie, because they are a corporation that wants to perpetually increase profits and make more money for their shareholders.  I think Nintendo does want to regain the lead over Sony and Microsoft and whoever else might try entering the race.  I hope to get some kind of comment from the company soon regarding this point.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2004, 07:13:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
No. The fact that GTA wasn't released on GC showed how much Rockstar dislikes Nintendo, nothing else.


Please.  There is no such thing as a corporate grudge.  Maybe there are executive grudges, but I think their influence is greatly overstated.  Rockstar is a multiplatform label, and they have in fact released GameCube titles, so your theory falls flat on its face.  (By the way, Smuggler's Run: Warzones is a lot of fun.)  They haven't released GTA on GameCube because they don't think it would sell enough to be financially viable...and they're probably right!  And that's Nintendo's fault.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2004, 10:30:23 AM »
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There is no such thing as a corporate grudge. Maybe there are executive grudges, but I think their influence is greatly overstated.


While I highly doubt this is the case with Rockstar, executive grudges kept Square and Namco off of Nintendo consoles for years. If anything, you're understating their influence.

I do agree very much that diversity is the key industry dominance- while the PS2 appeals to many different people, the XBox and Gamecube appeal to very specified groups, and sales continue to reflect the advantage of the former. It's not Nintendo's responsiblity to make their games diverse, however- people seem to expect Nintendo act out the part of a wide array of 3rd parties and then criticize them when they can't. Rather, Nintendo needs that wide array of 3rd parties, and instead of making "mature" games themselves they need to get 3rd parties who will do it for them. Nintendo has been great with bigger eastern 3rd parties in recent times, and all they need to do is extend that practice to western 3rd parties and smaller 3rd partiers overall.

Quote

They haven't released GTA on GameCube because they don't think it would sell enough to be financially viable...and they're probably right! And that's Nintendo's fault.


THIS is why I hate your editorials, Johnny- you make broad, sweeping generalizations like that and just expect everyone to believe you. How is it Nintendo's fault that their fans aren't all that interested in games like GTA? How is it their responsilibty to condition us to want such games? And if you're going to tell me it's because Nintendo lost all their 3rd parties, I went over all that in my editorial, so read it before you use that defense.

Regardless of all this, I hope your next editorial is over something entirely different, Johnny, because this one was little more than an extension of your last one. A third editorial on the same subject from the same viewpoint would be villanizing Nintendo. I'd suggest something like a Point Counterpoint, something where two opposing viewpoints are offered rather than just one, over and over again.  You're not offering any balance to the situation.  

Quote

again that is BS, dont underestimate what people are willing to spend to be "IN". Look at the IPOD and how well it is selling despite its cost.


iPod sales haved reached 2 million worldwide as of January 8th, 2004. Gameboy Advance sales have hit 20 million in the United States alone by February 14th, 2004. If the PSP is going to have sales comparable to the iPod, it WILL fail.  
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2004, 10:39:48 AM »
"How is it Nintendo's fault that their fans aren't all that interested in games like GTA?"

because NIN has created a horde of "stuck up we are better than you , because we said so gamers" this is why.

Look at many of the people who post here, they think anything non NIN is junk.

I have never, in all my life met a more pompous group, than those who post here on a regular basis.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2004, 10:47:16 AM »
Jesus, cubed, you're going to have to come up with a better defense that calling anyone who doesn't think Nintendo's the embodiment of Satan pompous. We're not all fanboys just because we disagree with YOU. Why don't you come up with a defense instead of trying to insult Nintendo's fanbase. It makes you look no better than the people you're attacking.

And if it makes you feel better, I LOVE Grand Theft Auto, both GTA3 and Vice City, and they were the main reason I bought my PS2, along with Ico. I'll probably be preording San Andreas once I buy a few parts for my computer.

Also, I made a comment about your iPod statement.
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2004, 11:01:18 AM »
Quote

They haven't released GTA on GameCube because they don't think it would sell enough to be financially viable...and they're probably right! And that's Nintendo's fault.


You surely can't be serious.  That is perhaps the most ridiculous thing i've read on these boards.  If Rockstar released the double pack right now, it'd sell okay.  If they released it early on, the sales would've exploded.  How can you think it wouldn't?  Its obvious the attitude at Rockstar is "come court us, and maybe we'll consider giving you the GTA series."  MS did, Nintendo didn't.  Thats why its not on the GC.

 As for grudges, there are some.  A lot of key people at Sega still seem to stick to that "Nintendos for kids" statement.  Sounds a lot like Segas advertising method in the early 90's if you ask me.
So why is it so hard to believe some people with-in certain developers couldn't care less about Nintendo?  If any of us had a DEV company, we'd make sure Nintendo had our game on their system, because we love Nintendo.  Is it so hard to believe some people dont like Nintendo, thus favor other consoles?  I'm sure its not entire companys, but i bet certain key people in the industry feel that way.
 
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2004, 11:35:09 AM »
I'm sorry, but thats how things work.  You court the company.  How the hell do you think xbox got into the industry?  It certaintly wasn't with hype, they went after the developers, and it worked.  They paid, promised, whatever it took to ensure that they wouldn't fall flat on their face. Nintendo hasn't done that, they have only done enough to get off on this generation, and to some extent I agree with johnny on that, Nintendo can't completely control the mature aspect, but anyone who argues they can't do atleast a little more is insane.  

Nintendo Power is now completely devoid of intelligence, there is nothing intelligent written in it, and all game scores are obsurdly high.  When was the last time they hyped ED?  Never, oh yeah forgot about that.

If we were a big developer, we would do what every sane business company does, put the product where it will suceed, then later we could worry about who we liked.  This is business, this isn't fanboy world.

Canuck, why would you make such a blatently stereotypical comment in a place that it is guarenteed to offend.  It's like coming to a reading group and saying that because they prefer an author they are pompous stuck ups for not reading a lot of other authors.  People prefer certain things, and it's their choice, insulting them for being in a place that is better (say a GAMECUBE FORUM) than say, an xbox forum, is in itself stupid.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2004, 11:39:20 AM »
Personally I feel that GTA would, even now, sell quite respectfully on the Cube.  Jonny is right though that Rockstar doesn't think it would sell.  And the fact that GTA is not on the Cube is partially Nintendo's fault.  If Rockstar doesn't feel the Cube userbase would buy GTA well that would be partially be Nintendo's fault.  It's the console maker's responsibility to attract a userbase that will buy the games released on the console.  I don't think it's fair for Acclaim to get mad at Nintendo for their games not selling since those games just weren't very good to begin with but GTA is critically acclaimed and is widely considered to be a good game so it should sell on the Cube.  If it doesn't something's wrong.  Still I think Rockstar is grossly underestimating the popularity of their own series.

Plus if a really major game (and this gen there's nothing bigger than GTA) is being released on every console BUT the Cube I think Nintendo should to expected by us fans to make an effort to secure it.  There's no excuse from a fan's perspective for GTA to not be on the Cube.  The Cube's hardware is easily sufficient and it's not an exclusive game.  Nintendo should have done all they could to get this game and it appears they did NOTHING.  I think it's fair to consider part of the console maker's job is to ensure that, when possible, the "best" games are available for it's userbase.  That means making deals over non-exclusive third party games.

Offline nolimit19

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2004, 11:50:46 AM »
Originally posted by: Mario
   But they're doing fine just now without them...

it depends on your definition of fine. barely scrapping for 2nd place is good in a race of 10, but in a race of 3 i would not say it was fine.  
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2004, 11:56:39 AM »
Quote

I'm sorry, but thats how things work. You court the company. How the hell do you think xbox got into the industry? It certaintly wasn't with hype, they went after the developers, and it worked.


Yes, thats what i said.


Quote

If we were a big developer, we would do what every sane business company does, put the product where it will suceed, then later we could worry about who we liked. This is business, this isn't fanboy world.


No kidding.  By saying i'd put it on Nintendo is saying I think it'd sell on the GC.  Why would you think the two biggest titles perhaps in the history of video games wouldn't sell?   Because of a preconceived notion that Nintendo is kiddie ?  Exactly the point.  Since I, the developer, have a respect for Nintendo as a company, and for their fans, i would put it on a Nintendo system , with anticipation of it selling, of course. Thats all i was trying to get across.
 
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Offline nolimit19

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2004, 12:07:47 PM »
all i know is that nintendo needs to launch its next console with a more "mature" title. do not...DO NOT launch it with pikmin 2 and pokermon. well you can it you want, but to shake the negative image that nintendo has, i think it would be best for them to make a statement at the begining of the next generation of consoles.  
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

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Offline Deguello

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2004, 12:09:22 PM »
I daresay this issue between 3rd parties and Nintendo may actually be unsolvable.  The best solution I see is a solution that is the best for both 3rd parties AND Nintendo.  Too many of you guys are ready to steamroll Nintendo for not  doing everything in their power to lure 3rd Parties, some of you even suggesting that Nintendo start making crap games so that 3rd parties get comfortable with their crappiness.  On the flipside, Too many guys suggest Nintendo get elitist with their 3rd Parties.  "Who needs them?"  Sorta stuff.  Nintendo kinda needs them.  They need them in a "I can't do it all by myself" way.

One thing I don't understand is why 3rd parties are just leaving the GC?  Are they just not affected by their piss-poor performance on the Xbox?  Of course they aren't.  Microsoft is subsidizing their failure.  Nintendo could do that.  Ensure they make a profit whether or not their games fail.  2 problems.  If it DOES fail, that doesn't do much to help out that there "image" thing everybody's talking about.  And without the worry of failure on the developers, why should they even worry about quality?  And even if they did "buy" their support, They could never compete with Microsoft on that.  They would outbid them everytime.  So that's out.

They could become all ruthless and iron fisted.  "Hey, you cancelled your GC games?  Alright WE cancelled your GBA games.  Isn't that great!?"  This would have been really effective in 2k1 and 2k2, but since the PSP is another option, they can't play that monopoly card.  AND there's that pesky image popping up again.  This would make them look difficult and unamiable to work with.  Though it would be a great schadenfreude feeling to help failing developers on their way to bankruptcy, it isn't right, both ecomonically and possibly morally.  Now if they used the GBA in the opposite direction, possibly halivng Licensing fees for devs making GBA games to make GC games, and if that game is exclusive, well, how does a buck sound?  That could be a great short term solution.  But if Nintendo should increase the licensing fess later, that could lead to another fallout.  That seems pretty good to me.

The problem with uber-pandering and bidding aggresively is, as my father says, "They sure would be fighting over a really small biscuit."  For some of these 3rd parties, it just would not be worth the effort.  They would bid aggressively and get the support, even front the marketing money and publish it themselves, only to have the game fail and the third party in question reach the same conclusion as before, except this time Nintendo has thrown money away.  Image isn't worth that.  Now some 3rd parties might BE worth it.  Like some whose games are viable in all 3 markets instead of just two.  I hate to make a value judgement, but companies like Acclaim and Midway are pretty medium-sized fishes in this lake compared to Capcom, Konami, Namco, Sqaure Enix, etc.  Their games are marketable to other territories as well as their own, while Midway's and Acclaim have a history of poor performance in Japan.  To continue this fish analogy, because I just ate some, I think the best selection of third parties would come from hooking the big fish and netting the little ones to grow at home until they grow big.  Not only are the medium sized ones too big for your net, the game warden will make you throw them back anyway, so it's not worth it.

I think the problem here is that people are trying to find somebody to blame.  Some of you guys blame Nintendo for not pandering to 3rd parties at the expense of their own game quality.  And some of you guys blame the 3rd parties for being crap and their crap selling like crap (I admit deservingly), but that's really not fair.  There is a solution out there, but it's not apparent, and bitching about it makes my head hurt.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2004, 12:13:25 PM »
GTA III/Vice City/Double Pack couldn't have been released on GameCube earlier because of Sony's exclusivity deal, which is very real and has paid off considerably for all parties involved.  The Double Pack didn't come out on Xbox until fall 2003, and by then Rockstar could see the poor sales of practically every M-rated title on the system, including some excellent games like Eternal Darkness and the Resident Evils.  Would the Double Pack sell on GameCube?  It's all relative.  It might sell 100,000 copies, although I'd be surprised.  But it wouldn't be selling the hundreds of thousands that it has sold on Xbox, and I don't think it would have even if the Double Pack had been released on all three systems at once.  As for whether the third-place sales on GameCube would have exceeded porting and publishing costs, there's no way to know.  I can tell you that a game as large as GTA is not easy or cheap to port, and it would have been even more expensive to bring to GameCube thanks to the need for multiple discs for each of the two games included.
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Offline Deguello

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2004, 12:21:23 PM »
Actually Jonny, the GTA games fit on two CDs for the PC.  That's about a GC disk.  And that probably without the super coolcompression tools involved.  
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2004, 12:26:11 PM »
Quote

GTA III/Vice City/Double Pack couldn't have been released on GameCube earlier because of Sony's exclusivity deal, which is very real and has paid off considerably for all parties involved.


The rationale you used was "They haven't released GTA on GameCube because they don't think it would sell enough to be financially viable...and they're probably right! And that's Nintendo's fault."  

I agreed with  "Its Nintedos fault".  I disagree with the reasoning.  I think the double pack would sell very well, especially if it was released at the same time as the Xbox.  It would hardly kill Rockstar to make even more money on a 2-3 year old project.   When i said even earlier, i was making a hypothetical statement showing the later they release it, the less it would sell.  Nintendo again, has to be held responsible.  Ian Sane basically stated all the reaons why already.
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Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2004, 01:05:05 PM »
Ok.. so, Nintendo are getting the shaft for not having games like Mafia, Sega Sports, Max Payne etc.

Does this mean Microsoft and Sony are getting "the shaft" for not having Viewtiful Joe, Billy Hatcher, the entire Resident Evil series, Tales of Symphonia, Skies of Arcadia, Baton Kaitos etc.?

Why aren't PS2 owners complaining that they aren't getting great games like that? And why are we complaining that we dont get crap like Mafia? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2004, 01:28:09 PM »
"Does this mean Microsoft and Sony are getting 'the shaft' for not having Viewtiful Joe, Billy Hatcher, the entire Resident Evil series, Tales of Symphonia, Skies of Arcadia, Baton Kaitos etc.?

Why aren't PS2 owners complaining that they aren't getting great games like that? And why are we complaining that we dont get crap like Mafia? Shouldn't it be the other way around?"

We complain about games that are available for the PS2 and Xbox but not the Cube.  We don't complain about exclusive titles like ICO, Halo, Final Fantasy X, etc. because we really have no chance of getting those titles.  The Cube games you mentioned are all exclusives so like how we don't usually whine about not getting PS2 or Xbox exclusives they don't whine about not getting our exclusives.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »
I can perfectly understand the Gamecube not getting obvious PS2 and XBox exclusives like Halo and Final Fantasy. It's when the Gamecube doesn't get games that are otherwise multiplatform, and would do well, like Burnout 3, for instance.

Quote

The Double Pack didn't come out on Xbox until fall 2003, and by then Rockstar could see the poor sales of practically every M-rated title on the system, including some excellent games like Eternal Darkness and the Resident Evils.


Eh, both exclusive Resident Evils for the Gamecube sold over a million copies worldwide. I believe the only M-rated title for the Xbox that has sold over a million copies is Halo.

Quote

it depends on your definition of fine. barely scrapping for 2nd place is good in a race of 10, but in a race of 3 i would not say it was fine.


Making a profit is what I consider fine, and Nintendo is better at that game than both Microsoft and Sony at the moment.

Quote

all i know is that nintendo needs to launch its next console with a more "mature" title. do not...DO NOT launch it with pikmin 2 and pokermon. well you can it you want, but to shake the negative image that nintendo has, i think it would be best for them to make a statement at the begining of the next generation of consoles.


This I completely agree with. I think one huge reason the XBox has succeeded at all is becaused Microsoft released Halo at launch, which really set a tone for the rest of its lifespan. Conversely, Nintendo set the opposite tone by not even releasing the traditional Mario game at launch. Hopefully they'll remedy this next generation.

In any case, I think Nintendo has a lot more work in establishing themselves as viable territory for mature games than any of you think. Since developers already have it engrained in their mindset that mature games won't do well on the Gamecube, they won't release their mature games on the Gamecube, which is only causing mature games to do worse on the Gamecube. True, if Nintendo had caught this problem at the beginning it wouldn't have reared its uglier head later on, but the fact is they didn't, and all we can really focus on now is how to fix the ordeal, which is almost impossible- it's one big viscious cycle that loops in on itself. I hope Iwata recognizes the benefits of his predecessor's agressiveness, because in times like these it's very useful.
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2004, 01:54:04 PM »
"Making a profit is what I consider fine, and Nintendo is better at that game than both Microsoft and Sony at the moment."

If you remove the hand held sales, is this still the case?
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Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2004, 01:55:26 PM »
Yep.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2004, 02:00:43 PM »
I believe Nintendo started making a profit off of the Gamecube itself almost right after launch. I used to doubt the Gamecube's profitability, as well, but Rick assured me Nintendo was not losing money on the console. Obviously the immense change they're pocketing off of the GBA doesn't hurt, either.
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Offline Bloodworth

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2004, 04:16:21 PM »
I think one big factor with Xbox that a lot of people are missing is that since it's based on PC architecture, it's like getting two ports for the price of one.  Once you get it running on Xbox, you've done most of the work for a PC port and can get two SKUs out of that development.  The GC has an entirely different architecture and smaller media, which makes those poor sales stick out even more.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2004, 04:20:12 PM »
It also gives lazy developers and excuse not to port their game to the Gamecube.
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Offline Ocarina Blue

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2004, 09:50:53 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Camelot has defined itself as a unique developer with games like Shining Force and Golden Sun.  Therefore they should work on something unique that showcases their talents and provides some variety to Nintendo's lineup.  Mario Tennis is a good game and will sell well because of the Mario license but it is not a system seller and will not help Nintendo in the long run.


Agreed. A golden Sun RPG a year or so into the Cubes lifespan could have done wonders.

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Include a pack-in disc with the N5 launch that has Gunstar Heroes, Guardian Heroes and RADIANT SILVERGUN on it (assuming Treasure owns the rights to those games).  That would not only promote Treasure and build up hype for their next game (every N5 owner would become familiar with them) but would also give the N5 a boost in sales at launch since every hardcore gamer on the web would want to own one to get that hardcore Radiant Silvergun game they've all heard about that sells for $100 on Ebay.


Yes: when it comes to apealing to hardcore gamers, you can't go past a contract with Treasure. Even if they're not so well known in the West yet, they will be. Treasure will one day rise to the heavens, single-handedly reviving the Japanese economy! Or something.

Quote

It also gives lazy developers and excuse not to port their game to the Gamecube.


Excuse? Nup, it gives them a valid reason. The X-Box's archetecture makes it simply more efficent to port to the X-Box than the Cube. Lazyness has nothing to do with it.

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Beave, several PGC forum users are Australian, i'm one, as is Mario, you don't need to explain to use the shortcommings of Nintendo in Australia, it needs SERIOUS in both Europe and Australia / New Zealand ( Ocarina Blue)


Agreed, why do all the crap consoles sell so well over here? (The MSII outsold the NES.) all humanoid squids.  
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Offline JubJub

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2004, 12:46:07 AM »
Here's something that i thought i'd bring up as it hasn't really been mentioned yet in this forum. From reading all the posting from other people i have been reading them in the frame of mind that 'each person owns a single console'. When u think of it like that, 3rd party support is really important.

When you think that a lot of people have more than 1 console, things are different.
(i own a GC and Xbox)

Last gen i owned a N64, all my friends owned a PS, and they all had them chipped and didn't buy many games at all, they just copied them all.

Now, its widely circulated that the xbox is the most powerful system of the current gen, and from what i can tell from the cross-platform games, it is.  There's a major difference in Burnout 2 for xbox and GC - the GC slows to 30 FPS in 2 player mode, the xbox stays at a solid 60 FPS.

I'm going all over the place with this post and not making much sense. I'm trying to get 3 points across:

1 - 3rd parties may prefer GC because of the difficulty in copying the games

2 - People own more than 1 system a lot of the time

3 - Different systems have different ports and customers choose the system that the game runs on best when purchasing.

Why would i buy Burnout 2 on GC when i can get the same game running smoother on the Xbox?

It may be beneficial for Nintendo to "help" renderware and the other cross-platform development tools work the best they possibly can for Nintendo hardware so that dodgily ported PS-2 games work best on the GC, therefore gain more purchases.
i alone sell more GC consoles than Nintendo Australia.

Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2004, 03:42:12 AM »
Demo disks, demo disks, demo disks. That is one thing I really like about my x-box, is that I can preview games, AT HOME, on my gear, and decide if they are what I am looking for. IMO this is something NIN really needs to start doing. I would think that 1st, 2nd and 3rd party developers would be all for this.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2004, 03:55:42 AM »
Quote

Excuse? Nup, it gives them a valid reason. The X-Box's archetecture makes it simply more efficent to port to the X-Box than the Cube. Lazyness has nothing to do with it.


You misunderstood me- I was not saying developers are lazy in that they port games to the Xbox instead of the Gamecube, but because they won't port games to the Gamecube in addition to the XBox. I can perfectly understand a PC developers willingness to port their game to the XBox, given the similar architecture, but once it's on the XBox it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away from being on the Gamecube. The main reason it's NOT is because developers are too lazy to get used to a new architecture- they'll hide behind the excuse that their game wouldn't have sold well on the Gamecube when they really have no clue because they never even released it on the Gamecube. If releasing a multiplatform game on all 3 consoles simply became standard practice instead of the rare oddity, I guarantee you both the Gamecube and the XBox's audiences would diversify.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2004, 04:24:02 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
they'll hide behind the excuse that their game wouldn't have sold well on the Gamecube when they really have no clue because they never even released it on the Gamecube.


They probably have a good clue from sales data on other games.  Laziness has nothing to do with it; if publishers thought they could make money with a GameCube release, they would do it.  These people are ruthless, and they want to make money.  Lots of it.

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2004, 06:26:50 AM »
(why are people getting so worked up over Mafia? That game was released around the same time as GTA 3 and sold far less)

Well, Goblin Commander was at first not meant to be released on the GC "because third party games don't sell on GC". What I think Nintendo needs to do is educate people that third party games are not necessarily bad.
I've heard from a software tester that the GC was supposedly weaker than the PS2. How could he say that? Well, he worked for a pretty bad publisher, the games he used as a benchmark were pretty bad to mediocre and I wouldn't doubt the GC ports were very sloppily done. That means sloppy ports aren't just an excuse, they do in fact exist and can drag a game down quite a bit.

For all the people debating over the sales of "mature" games on the GC: James Bond: Everything or nothing was the best selling game on the GC last week in the UK. I bet it sold pretty well in every market.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2004, 11:42:24 AM »
Quote

These people are ruthless, and they want to make money. Lots of it.


You just proved my point, Johnny! These developers are only looking for a quick buck, and are NOT up for the work required to make the Gamecube a viable 3rd party platform. I know it's possible- 1st and 3rd parties coexisted peacefully on the NES and SNEs, prospered even. If 3rd parties would take a more agressive approach themselves they could make the Gamecube into a place where 3rd party games can sell. It's a paradox, a catch-22, if you will. They won't release their games on the Gamecube as long as it's not a viable 3rd party platform, but it won't be a viable 3rd party platform until 3rd parties start releasing games for. You just supported my argument that 3rd parties are too lazy to embrace a strategy to mold the Gamecube into a console as opportunistic as the PS2 in this regard.  
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Offline TheYoungerPlumber

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2004, 02:33:46 PM »
Why should thrid parties feel the urge to mold another company's console when they feel it isn't worth the financial risk?  I don't blame them either.  Nintendo should just focus on tis NEXT system's image and support (including holding off some important titles if needed), and do its best to keep its current userbase happy.  From Nintendo's behavior, that is either their plan, or they don't care about garnering more widespread thrid party support.
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Offline Kyosho

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2004, 02:42:56 PM »
1st and 3rd parties coexisted peacefully on the NES and SNEs, prospered even

Keep in mind of the lack of competition.  And if I remember right, the PS2 came out earlier than the Gamecube, so in that regards the Cube was also about 1/2 a generation behind of its competitor.

You just supported my argument that 3rd parties are too lazy to embrace a strategy to mold the Gamecube into a console as opportunistic as the PS2 in this regard.

Being a programmer myself, I view it with this state of mind..
1) What audience I am targetting
2) The ease of porting/coding
3) The value of success after release

As you can see right now, people are bashing the Cube left and right, and 3rd minor parties are abandoning support for the Cube.  Demographically and statistically, I have to wonder about what age groups make up most of the audience as well as what tastes they have for games.  After staring at the current Cube library, I would have to say it's less than mature.  Second, porting code is a pain in the butt.  It's easier said then done.  If APIs were portable, then that wouldn't be a problem.  If I am used to a language already for instance PS2's difficult API, then why bother programming using another API that has a smaller user base with different genre tastes? Sure it may be *easy* to code in -claims Nintendo-, but that also means you have to research the Cube's onboard architecture and figure out a way to port everything so it utilizes the architecture.  That takes time and effort, and obviously the return result is not commonly rewarding as shown by recent releases.  

It really is not up to the Coders to mold the Cube to be the defining kind of if its generation.  It's up to Nintendo to HELP ease the change of scenery, and to ENCOURAGE as well as reward.  

Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2004, 03:02:35 PM »
Quote

After staring at the current Cube library, I would have to say it's less than mature


Really? I guess not having 150 FPSs on the GC is 'less than mature'.

And Johnny, if these developers were so hungry for cash, they'd realize what everybody in business realizes-holding product back does not increase your market/wealth.  If they put the same effort across all 3 consoles, they would be rewarded for doing so.  When they release a sh!tty port 6 months late, what do they expect?  For instance, Hitman 2.  I believe it only sold 25,000 copies for the GC.  Had they released it the same time as the other consoles, i'm quite sure it would've sold more.    Who's to blame in that case?  If a game sells 100,000 copies, especially a port, you can't tell me its not worth the effort.  To be perfectly honest, most of these developers care about total game sales across all three platforms, not one platform.  So to me, it is laziness more than anything.  Nintendo has a role in it as well, but that only provides these developers with an excuse, its not the true reason.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2004, 03:08:10 PM »
Omen summed up my thoughts perfectly- refer to his post if you want my to know my opinion at the moment.
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Offline Kyosho

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2004, 06:21:37 PM »
Really? I guess not having 150 FPSs on the GC is 'less than mature'

sarcasm aside, what I meant to say was they were not targetted toward the same audience that for example the PS2's library is targetted at.  Whether or not you agree, it doesn't really matter.   I am viewing this from a developer's point of view, not a consumer's.  

So to me, it is laziness more than anything. Nintendo has a role in it as well, but that only provides these developers with an excuse, its not the true reason.

I have to wonder how many of you actually do any sort of programming.  High school programming does not count either.  On another note, I have been pondering WHY Nintendo ports always get the shaft out of everything.  And somehow, I get the feeling it's due to the complex architecture of the Gamecube and that Nintendo isn't really as developer-friendly as they could be.  

Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2004, 03:03:26 AM »
Quote

sarcasm aside, what I meant to say was they were not targetted toward the same audience that for example the PS2's library is targetted at. Whether or not you agree, it doesn't really matter. I am viewing this from a developer's point of view, not a consumer's.


I was responding to your point of view, which stated  "After staring at the current Cube library, I would have to say it's less than mature. "  But i digress.

Quote

but that also means you have to research the Cube's onboard architecture and figure out a way to port everything so it utilizes the architecture. That takes time and effort, and obviously the return result is not commonly rewarding as shown by recent releases.


If that doesn't support the laziness theory, then what does?   If they took the time and effort, it would be rewarding.  For an example of laziness, check Baldurs gate , which i believe was released 6 months late, and still turned out to be the worst version.  Oh, but i see, it took them 6 months to fiddle with the GCs architecture, then they decided to do a sh!tty job anyway.  What business sense, or programmingf sense , is that?



Quote

I have to wonder how many of you actually do any sort of programming. High school programming does not count either. On another note, I have been pondering WHY Nintendo ports always get the shaft out of everything. And somehow, I get the feeling it's due to the complex architecture of the Gamecube and that Nintendo isn't really as developer-friendly as they could be.


I don't think you have to be a programmer to understand business, which is the real issue.   But i do go to school with literally a couple thousand game design students(programming).  

The GC is a very easy architecture to develope for.  But the Xbox, as someone stated, kills two birds with one stone, since its basically a PC at its heart.  The PS2 has to be developed for, because its got the huge following.  The GC, while easy to develop for, is still different, and thus laziness , IE, "we don't have the time to spend on making this GC version, so will scrap it" kind of mentality.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2004, 04:38:05 AM »
As I said, even Sony is complaining about lazy programmers not fully utilizing their machine.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2004, 05:39:42 AM »
I read the article and I will say that I agree entirely.  Nintendo has been passive with thier image allowing it to be run through the meat grinder beginning with the SNES when Sega began attacking Nintendo.

Diversifying thier own 1st and 2nd party lineups are the first step to gaining consumers and developers who see Nintendo as purposefully alienating their console from what the market is hungry for.  The try to pay too much attention to being different from their "competition" that they forget that their own lineup must have differenciations between titles.  You can't just release Mario Sunshine, Pikmin, and Donkey Konga and expect people to see you as different.  They just see you as one dimensional when you can't tell the difference between one tellutuby game and the next.

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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2004, 08:22:58 AM »
Quote

You can't just release Mario Sunshine, Pikmin, and Donkey Konga and expect people to see you as different. They just see you as one dimensional when you can't tell the difference between one tellutuby game and the next.


What about WW, ED, Metroid Prime and MGS:TS?

"If a man comes to the door of poetry untouched by the madness of the muses, believing that technique alone will make him a great poet, he and his sane compositions never reach perfection, but are utterly eclipsed by the inspired madman." Socrates

Offline Deguello

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2004, 03:25:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
You can't just release Mario Sunshine, Pikmin, and Donkey Konga and expect people to see you as different.  They just see you as one dimensional when you can't tell the difference between one tellutuby game and the next.


God DAMN that is so retarded nemo.  What does that last sentence even mean?

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2004, 06:55:14 AM »
Sega does what Nintendon't. Like goin' third party.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2004, 01:32:21 PM »
Proof that some 3rd parties must have some bias against the Gamecube. Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee was built from the ground up for the Gamecube and then ported over to the XBox months later. As a result the Gamecube version's sales crushed the XBox version's. Logically, then, Atari should drop the XBox version of Godzilla Destroy All Monsters Melee 2 and release it at the very least on the Gamecube. But what does Atari do? Release the sequel on every console BUT the Gamecube. Apparently when the Gamecube gets a half assed port of a months old game, its not selling well is the Gamecube's fault. But when the same thing happens on a different system, the publisher conveniently turns a blind eye towards it and STILL screws over Gamecube owners. How the hell can you explain that? Maybe it's not a huge conspiracy, but it shows at least Atari doesn't even want to try to support the Gamecube.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2004, 01:40:54 PM »
This has got to be the most balanced editorial I've read about Nintendo's situation in some time. Why? Because of the very important acknowledgement of a particular value system in the way we may look at Nintendo. At one point the author states that, "If Nintendo wants to regain ..."

That "If" is very important, because it acknowledges that all of these ideas that Nintendo fans have of worldwide domination, all these concepts of marketting, mindshare, and money... these are based on the assumption that Nintendo, at their core, is a company solely focused on winning the marketshare war.

Which, if you instead consider Nintendo a company built around Shigeru Miyamoto's legacy... it isn't.

Think about it: Nintendo has been built around Shigeru Miyamoto games. Even when Yamauchi was in charge, his most significant and pivotal action was to create an environment in which Shigeru Miyamoto could create freely. And Shigeru Miyamoto doesn't care about marketshare, he doesn't care about appealing to just adults, or in winning any image war. He doesn't care much about how many third parties Nintendo has... Shigeru Miyamoto, and Nintendo by extension, has just one core value: creative, high-quality games which are not dependent on graphics or gameplay. (This is opposed to SquareEnix, whose games are built wholly around graphics and storylines, with gameplay as a less important topic)

Looking at Nintendo this way, it's apparent that Nintendo will never have as many third-parties as Sony, and will enver have as cool an image as Microsoft. It becomes apparent that Nintendo's true philosophy is one that propels it towards creating the next Pikmin, or next Mario Kart... not the next awesome commercial or the next all-inclusive piece of home media center hardware.

And perhaps...when Nintendo Fans truly accept Nintendo as a company not meant to lead in terms of marketshare, but meant to lead in terms of visionary game design... perhaps THEN Nintendo fans will learn to appreciate their chosen company fully...

And perhaps they'll appreciate Nintendo enough to stop trying to turn it into Sony or Microsoft.

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2004, 01:58:43 PM »
"Logically, then, Atari should drop the XBox version of Godzilla Destroy All Monsters Melee 2 and release it at the very least on the Gamecube. But what does Atari do? Release the sequel on every console BUT the Gamecube. Apparently when the Gamecube gets a half assed port of a months old game, its not selling well is the Gamecube's fault. But when the same thing happens on a different system, the publisher conveniently turns a blind eye towards it and STILL screws over Gamecube owners. How the hell can you explain that?"

You can't explain it.  That's just f*cked up.

"Think about it: Nintendo has been built around Shigeru Miyamoto games. Even when Yamauchi was in charge, his most significant and pivotal action was to create an environment in which Shigeru Miyamoto could create freely."

Incorrect.  Nintendo didn't become "the Shiggy show" until the N64.  Before that there has a much wider variety coming from Nintendo's different teams.  It wasn't until Gunpei Yoki left the company that Miyamoto became the main focus.  Nintendo consoles traditionally were platforms designed to create great games not just great EAD games.  If Nintendo focused on just creating great games period without having Miyamoto get involved in everything they probably have a much wider appeal.

I like Miyamoto and I like EAD but I don't want EVERY game Nintendo makes to feel like a Miyamoto game.  I think a lot of other people feel the same way and that's pretty much Nintendo's diversity problem in a nut shell.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2004, 02:09:14 PM »
Miyamoto may have increased his influence a bit, but Nintendo does NOT revolve around him- look at games like Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Mario and Luigi, Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Wave Race, 1080, and Kirby's Air Ride. Even games I know he had a big part in, like Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, and Twin Snakes, don't outwardly show any signs of his style.  

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And perhaps...when Nintendo Fans truly accept Nintendo as a company not meant to lead in terms of marketshare, but meant to lead in terms of visionary game design... perhaps THEN Nintendo fans will learn to appreciate their chosen company fully...


I think it's more a matter of what Nintendo deserves. I personally wouldn't care if Nintendo never became the market leader again, as long as they keep making a profit, which I know they will. But I think Nintendo should be given the respect they deserve from the industry, not only for what they've done in the past but for what they're still doing- it makes me sad when I hear about stunts such as what Atari is pulling. I've come to expect stupid businesses and come to terms with their disrespect towards the real leaders, but that doesn't mean I'm any less pissed off when I hear about something like that.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2004, 03:10:38 PM »
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"Think about it: Nintendo has been built around Shigeru Miyamoto games. Even when Yamauchi was in charge, his most significant and pivotal action was to create an environment in which Shigeru Miyamoto could create freely."

Incorrect.  Nintendo didn't become "the Shiggy show" until the N64.  Before that there has a much wider variety coming from Nintendo's different teams.  It wasn't until Gunpei Yoki left the company that Miyamoto became the main focus.  Nintendo consoles traditionally were platforms designed to create great games not just great EAD games.  If Nintendo focused on just creating great games period without having Miyamoto get involved in everything they probably have a much wider appeal.

I like Miyamoto and I like EAD but I don't want EVERY game Nintendo makes to feel like a Miyamoto game.  I think a lot of other people feel the same way and that's pretty much Nintendo's diversity problem in a nut shell.


That's a good correction, but the point still stands that even if Nintendo hasn't always been built around Shigeru Miyamoto's game design philosophy, it is now.

Shigeru Miyamoto has always been a major (if not the) driving force behind Nintendo, even in the NES era. And Yamauchi's heavy-handed ideals during that generation (like encouraging quality over quantity by limiting companies to only a set number of releases each year) easily became absorbed with Miyamoto's pursuit of excellence. Even Yokoi seems a distant second when counting Nintendo's marquee games. AND, with the N64's utilization of cartridges, we see that Miyamoto has really becoming an integral aspect of the company. There were many reasons for the cartridges, but surely one of them is that Mario 64 would not have been possible with 1996 CD technology. Add to this the fact that Miyamoto is even tied into hardware design with the N64 and GC controllers... and Miyamoto's modern dominance of Nintendo thinking is apparent.

Now, new voices are always a good thing.
And we can judge whether or not Miyamoto is dead weight. We can decide for ourselves whether Nintendo is held back or not, or whether pursueing market numbers and dollars is worth forfeiting support for Miyamoto's visions.

But I don't think we should criticize Nintendo for being something they aren't. They aren't Sony, they aren't a consumer electronics company, they can't win the tech-spec battle. They aren't Microsoft, they can't network as well and they can't market as savvily. They can try, but in the end they are only Nintendo, a company driven by Miyamoto's game design, a company that's being ever more marginalized because of it.

I personally expect Miyamoto to get credit for the next Nintendo controller. That's how integral he's become with Nintendo's work. I expect Nintendo to continue pursueing the hardware market for some time, because Mario 64 exemplified how Miyamoto was needed hardware & software innovation simultaneously. But I don't expect them to become the market share leader, because I don't think Miyamoto cares about marketshare as much as he does innovation or fun games.

I expect Nintendo to do exactly as they think they should, as Miyamoto thinks they should. Nothing more, nothing less. And if this means they don't take the marketshare position again... I expect that that's never been what Miyamoto's philosophy is about...

And as a Nintendo fan, I guess I can't help but respect that level of integrity.

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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2004, 07:35:27 PM »
Everyone on these boards(mostly) have high respect for Nintendo.  The main point of contention has been why no respect abroad when they do deserve it?  Not having the popularity vote is one thing, but having people actually disrespect Nintendo in the industry, as moves like this one by Atari prove, is just plain questionable, at best.  There are many companies who either A) Just think Nintendo is kiddie or B) are being spoonfed BS from MS and Sony, the same way Sega did in the early 90's, or C) They have released a game on Nintendo of poor quality and it didn't sell, or D) they released a port much too late as an afterthought, and it didn't sell.  Its a sad state of affairs, it really is.  

Man , that GodzillaAMM 2 item has me pissed....
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Offline Kyosho

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2004, 10:21:55 PM »
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The main point of contention has been why no respect abroad when they do deserve it? Not having the popularity vote is one thing, but having people actually disrespect Nintendo in the industry, as moves like this one by Atari prove, is just plain questionable, at best


We make up a very very very small minority of the crowd.  Who are we to say that they do deserve respect or they don't? We can only argue why we think they deserve the respect.  IMHO, from the last 2 generations (including this one), with the way Nintendo proceeded with their lucklaster business approach, they are at fault for the current dilemma.

Offline Deguello

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2004, 11:45:21 PM »
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lucklaster business approach


I don't see where making a metric ass-load of money is "lackluster."  A lackluster approach would be to spend like there is no tomorrow, and thus fund your own demise.
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2004, 01:33:58 AM »
"as long as they keep making a profit, which I know they will."

I wouldnt go that far. In my biz I see this statement bite more asses than any other.

" But I think Nintendo should be given the respect they deserve from the industry, not only for what they've done in the past but for what they're still doing"

I disagree with this. Respect is an ongoing thing and NINs current state in the console market doesnt warrent any respect IMO, profit or not. THey went from the kings of the market to third for most of this gen, that doesnt deserve respect as far as I am concerned.

"A lackluster approach would be to spend like there is no tomorrow, and thus fund your own demise."

Middle ground would be nice. A few more $$$ spent on advertising wouldnt hurt. How about a MGS ad or 2?
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Offline Mario

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2004, 01:39:20 AM »
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How about a MGS ad or 2?

Nintendo aren't publishing MGS:TTS.. it's up to Konami to do that.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2004, 02:21:28 AM »
Regardless of whether you personally think Nintendo deserves respect, will anyone here say they deserve what Atari has done?
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2004, 03:49:06 AM »
"will anyone here say they deserve what Atari has done?"

what did Atari do that was so bad? I must have missed it?
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2004, 04:11:28 AM »
They scrapped the GC sequel even though the original was built from the ground up on GC hardware and outsold the Xbox version .
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2004, 06:44:05 AM »
"I personally expect Miyamoto to get credit for the next Nintendo controller."

Is that a good thing though?  Both the N64 and Cube controllers seemed to be designed for his games and as a result both designs were not very flexible for use in third party games.  The N64 controller managed to be sufficient for most games but the Cube controller absolutely sucks for fighting games or any game that favours digitial controls.  It's a real shame because from a comfort point of view the Cube controller is the best on the market.  It could have been so perfect if non-Nintendo games were taken into account in the design.  Note that with the NES and SNES, Nintendo's most successful consoles, the controller was incredibly accomidating and worked with nearly every type of game, not just Nintendo games.

I think Miyamoto should have input on the next controller design but shouldn't design it outright because he just doesn't think of how the controller will work with the types of games he doesn't make.  The design should be a collaborative effort with designers from Capcom, Sega, Namco, etc so that it is more generic and thus works better with all types of games.  I would rather have a controller that's good at all games than one that is absolutely amazing for Nintendo games and completely sucks for anything else.

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2004, 07:08:20 AM »
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Originally posted by: The Omen
They scrapped the GC sequel even though the original was built from the ground up on GC hardware and outsold the Xbox version .


Oh, I thought you guys meant the crime to humanity that was E.T...

Offline vudu

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2004, 10:23:31 AM »
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Apparently when the Gamecube gets a half assed port of a months old game, its not selling well is the Gamecube's fault. But when the same thing happens on a different system, the publisher conveniently turns a blind eye towards it and STILL screws over Gamecube owners. How the hell can you explain that?
a hypothetical example:

i design a game for gamecube and it sells 100,000 copies.  then i port it over to xbox and it sells 25,000 copies.  for some reason, i don't port it over to ps2 (maybe it's because i don't have the resources to create 3 versions of the game).  still, i just sold 125,000 copies of my game.  not half bad.

then, i sit down and think about it (not sure how i figure all this out, because i'm not atari) and i decide that if i had originally created the game for xbox or ps2 in the first place rather than port it over, i would have sold 150,000 copies.  if i had then ported it over to the other one, it would have sold an additional 75,000 copies.  my studies show that most gamecube owners own at least one other console, so if the game was readily available on the other two systems, it would only sell 50,000 on gamecube.

at this point, it would only make sense (from a business standpoint) to create the sequal for the xbox and ps2 (assuming i can only devote the resources to make two versions of the game).

i have no idea how my company could have come to this conclusion, but if i did, that's what i would do (assuming i was looking to maximize my revenue).
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Offline Deguello

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2004, 12:58:25 PM »
I disagree, king.  The logical assumption would be to put it on the GC and the PS2.  Godamm has already proved to sell like fermented manure on the Xbox.  So therefore, at least according to most third parties logic, the Xbox gets no further support.  But of course, if their failure were to be subsidized, I'm sure they might have a change of heart.
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Offline vudu

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2004, 08:10:28 AM »
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i decide that if i had originally created the game for xbox or ps2 in the first place rather than port it over, i would have sold 150,000 copies.
i somehow decided that if it had originally been created for either the xbox or the ps2, it would have sold 150k copies, not 100k.  in my hypothetical scenario, the only reason it sold so poorly on xbox is because it was a gamecube port.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2004, 10:17:34 AM »
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i somehow decided that if it had originally been created for either the xbox or the ps2, it would have sold 150k copies, not 100k. in my hypothetical scenario, the only reason it sold so poorly on xbox is because it was a gamecube port.


Exactly- but if 3rd parties used your logic, the Gamecube would have gotten sequels to the games that sold poorly because they were XBox/PS2 ports, too. Obviously Atari is not using that logic- Atari created their own logic, probably with an old coat hanger and some yarn.
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Offline vudu

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2004, 11:31:31 AM »
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if 3rd parties used your logic, the Gamecube would have gotten sequels to the games that sold poorly because they were XBox/PS2 ports, too.
um...damn.  you got me there.  well, i never said it was good logic.  

maybe atari seems to think that xbox people don't like gamecube ports, but but gamecube people have no problem with xbox ports.  maybe atari views the xbox as the better platform, and therefore more people will buy the xbox version of the game if the xbox version is available at the same time or sooner than the gamecube version, but if it's later no one will get it.  who knows.

this talkback thread has kinda gotten off topic.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2004, 08:42:29 AM »
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" But I think Nintendo should be given the respect they deserve from the industry, not only for what they've done in the past but for what they're still doing"

I disagree with this. Respect is an ongoing thing and NINs current state in the console market doesnt warrent any respect IMO, profit or not. THey went from the kings of the market to third for most of this gen, that doesnt deserve respect as far as I am concerned.



I can certainly see how one can not favor a company with your reasoning, but I'd think that whether or not we respect someone should have deeper foundations than "They are no longer number one." Why did they lose the market? Because Nintendo, as a game-centric company built around Miyamoto's ideas and games isn't equiped to lead the modern-day market. They don't have the technical know-how of either Sony or Microsoft, and don't have the ability to blast open the industry to the mainstream. So of course they're no longer number one!

BUT, they keep doing what they are built for, what their mission is. They're not trying to pretend to be hip, or bleeding edge, or something they're not. They're not good at bombarding consumers with ads. But they are good with making great and creative games.

And if one sees that Nintendo's spirit is simply in line with that, one perceives a sort of integrity to what the company's trying to do: surviving as an entity of traditional craftsmanship in a day of automation and mass-producing.

If you're bottomline line is consumer dollars, then you may not respect Nintendo for that.
But you should at least not disrespect them for merely being who they are, for failing to capture market share but succeeding at creating games that only Nintendo can bring forth.

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2004, 10:22:02 AM »
"They don't have the technical know-how of either Sony or Microsoft"

BS.  They don't have the marketing know-how of Sony or MS but they easily have the technical know-how.  I don't see any official wireless controllers for the OTHER consoles.  Plus the Gamecube has virtually no load times.  Hardware-wise Nintendo has made a very good console.  They just suck at marketing their games and making games that fit the current market trends.

Offline vudu

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2004, 10:46:44 AM »
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Hardware-wise Nintendo has made a very good console. They just suck at marketing their games and making games that fit the current market trends.
so basically you're saying nintendo has turned into sega?
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2004, 08:46:08 PM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"They don't have the technical know-how of either Sony or Microsoft"

BS.  They don't have the marketing know-how of Sony or MS but they easily have the technical know-how.  I don't see any official wireless controllers for the OTHER consoles.  Plus the Gamecube has virtually no load times.  Hardware-wise Nintendo has made a very good console.  They just suck at marketing their games and making games that fit the current market trends.


BS. There's no way Nintendo can expect to out-spec the almighty Microsoft, or the consumer electronics giant Sony, in any prolonged technical-specification war.

Nintendo has always created it's hardware with more emphasis on design/gimmickry rather than gadgetry. Even the Nintendo DS is approaching the more powerful Sony PSP with only the comparative polygon pushing power of an N64 (The PSP is rumoured to have PS2 graphical capabilities). Nintendo can overcome their comparative weakness through excellent design (sticking to long battery life in the GB series, for example) that others somehow miss, or through good games.

But never, NEVER, will you see Nintendo go out there and say, "We have a more powerful system, technically speaking, than our competitors." Why? Because they don't. They may be par for the course, but there's no way they're leading the computational pack. They always emphasis their design, and their games. (Rightfully so)

What does this mean? That while Nintendo may keep up with Sony and Microsoft in the technical prowess competition, we shouldn't be holding our breath for Nintendo to beat either computing/electronics company at their own game. Rather, like the DS shows, we should expect Nintendo to try to render the tech-race issue moot through sheer innovation. That is, we should expect them to survive by being more and more Nintendo, and NOT trying to become a Sony or Microsoft entity.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2004, 04:20:16 AM »
1. Unlike Sega, Nintendo manages to sell millions of games still.
2. Nintendo doesn't emphasize tech specs, but that doesn't mean they cannot compete in that area. They know that they'll need enough power (since they're making games themselves  and they know how much their machine delivers in real-life. Let's put it like that: Sony's PMPO easily beats Nintendo's RMS.
3. The DS' dual screen might not exactly grab customers, but it won't scare them away, either (oh, no, this thing has two screens! One screen is much better!). The price point of the PSP, on the other hand, will scare away a LOT of people. And those few who will buy it will spread the word on the battery life. Bad word of mouth and press is the worst case scenario for any device (see: NGage).

Offline DrZoidberg

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2004, 05:55:04 AM »
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(The PSP is rumoured to have PS2 graphical capabilities)


lollin', PS2 has Toy Story ™ esque graphics.
OUT OF DATE.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2004, 10:19:01 AM »
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They may be par for the course, but there's no way they're leading the computational pack.


Eh, there's actually strong evidence to support that the Gamecube may actually be more powerful than the XBox. I think what you should be saying is that Nintendo knows how to make a technically magnificent console, but they're not as familiar with lying and twisting the specs like MS and Sony do. I think this is quite evident with the simple fact that Nintendo lowballed their own specs- a launch game made in less than 9 months, Rogue Leader, even surpassed them. On the other hand, MS and Sony try to be sensationalist even though what they're saying isn't true.

Also, the PSP won't have PS2 graphics- get that out of your head now before you get dissaponited later on.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #105 on: March 17, 2004, 10:54:29 AM »
"There's no way Nintendo can expect to out-spec the almighty Microsoft, or the consumer electronics giant Sony, in any prolonged technical-specification war."

But they already have done that before (SNES and N64 were the most powerful console available when they were released) and arguably are doing it now.  I agree that they don't focus on making a big all powerful console and brag about the specs but that doesn't mean they can't compete on a technological level because they have.  They've done so with the Cube.  I do agree with you that Nintendo focuses more on game design and innovation I just don't think they should be sold short on the technology front because they are quite competent in that area as well.

I kind it incredibly ironic that Sony is often credited as being a big technological powerhouse when BOTH of their consoles had considerably "weaker" hardware than the competition.  In fact I don't think I have ever been wowed from a technical perspective by either Playstation.  They seem to attract the graphics whores as well despite consistently having relatively crappy graphic capabilities.

Offline vudu

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #106 on: March 17, 2004, 11:17:05 AM »
i think what he meant to say is there's no way nintendo can out-spec microsoft--assuming nintendo doesn't want to lose $100 to $150 per console sold.  

from what i hear nintendo is losing something like $10 on ever console sold, so components and labor cost roughly $110.  (wait, that's not right.  because i have to assume the retailer want to make money for selling the product.  so it's considerably less than $100.)  microsoft loses between $50 - $75 on every console sold (depends on who you talk to) so if i low-ball it, it costs about $230 to make an xbox.  (again, wrong because i didn't figure in retailer profit.)

so yes, there's no way (almost no way?) nintendo will be able to make a console that is more powerful than the xbox when they spend over a hundred dollars less than microsoft spends for every console.  but if you give nintendo an extra $120 to put into each console, i have faith that nintendo would not fail to impress.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline The Omen

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #107 on: March 17, 2004, 12:40:50 PM »
Just because a console costs much more to make does not mean it's more powerful.  It could mean its not built economicallly, couldn't it?  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2004, 12:55:33 AM »
Omen: You mean that as in "PS2 is the most expensive"?

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #109 on: March 18, 2004, 06:13:39 AM »
omen - it's not impossible, but chances are if two very capable entities set out to build a something (in this case, a video game console) and company A has a price point twice as high as company B, chances are company A's product is going to be more capable than company B's.

does that mean it's better?  no.  
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #110 on: March 18, 2004, 07:00:33 AM »
Do you guys seriously envision a future where Nintendo puts out a console generally accepted as more technically capable than Sony or Microsoft?

Nintendo's concentration on game design (whereas both Rare and Factor 5 are technologically-minded), coupled with Sony's and Microsoft's firm presence in the computational and electronics field, coupled with Sony and Microsoft's enormous corporate resources... means that Nintendo cannot expect to simply produce a more powerful system. Why do you think Nintendo has been trying to emphasize innovation or creativity over better graphics recently? They know they cannot survive a dragged-out console war if the only determinant is technological capability (and by extension, computational power).

I'm not in any ways saying that Nintendo isn't capable or that it's competitors haven't made mistakes that lessen their efficacy (So what if the PSX was less powerful than the N64? Nintendo didn't have a technical comfort with the CD format while Sony did... that's why Nintendo had to collaborate with Sony on the PSX in the first place: Nintendo couldn't make a CD based system). What I'm saying is that if Nintendo tried to stand toe-to-toe with Sony and Microsoft in a tech war, they'd be on the losing end.

With that in mind, they can only succeed in being more unique and creative (the DS, for example), and instead of challenging Sony or Microsoft on tech specs or whatnot, they must merely remain as up-to-date as possible in that field while at the same time distinguishing themselves as only Nintendo can: through gameplay innovation.

They can only survive by acting like Nintendo, but remaining competitive with their opponents while not becoming clones of them.

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Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #111 on: March 18, 2004, 07:03:09 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I kind it incredibly ironic that Sony is often credited as being a big technological powerhouse when BOTH of their consoles had considerably "weaker" hardware than the competition.  In fact I don't think I have ever been wowed from a technical perspective by either Playstation.  They seem to attract the graphics whores as well despite consistently having relatively crappy graphic capabilities.


Oh god, I agrere with you sooo much. For some reason, the PS2 has a certain graphical style/quality throughout most/all of its games that I can't stand! ...Same for the DC too...
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Offline vudu

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #112 on: March 18, 2004, 09:42:02 AM »
Quote

Why do you think Nintendo has been trying to emphasize innovation or creativity over better graphics recently? They know they cannot survive a dragged-out console war if the only determinant is technological capability (and by extension, computational power).
i was thinking it was because gameplay is more important than graphics.  it's not that nintendo can't complete in the graphics department, it's that sony and microsoft can't compete in the gameplay department.  that's just me though.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #113 on: March 18, 2004, 10:29:13 AM »
Quote

Do you guys seriously envision a future where Nintendo puts out a console generally accepted as more technically capable than Sony or Microsoft?


There's a difference between being generally accepted as having the more technically capable console and actually having the more technically capable console. MS and Sony may be very technically capable companies, but Nintendo released a product that is more advanced than Sony's and at the very least on par with Microsoft's- that's certainly nothing to scoff at.

And don't think that just because Nintendo regards gameplay as a higher priority than graphics that Nintendo ignores making games with good graphics. Nintendo still recognizes the importance of having a good looking game, they just don't think it's MORE important than having solid, creative, or innovative gameplay. Gameplay isn't ALL that matters to Nintendo, but it's what matters MOST.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #114 on: March 18, 2004, 11:20:18 AM »
I'm certainly not criticizing Nintendo on these grounds. In fact, it's because of these grounds that I grow to appreciate Nintendo ever more, whether or not I can walk up to a PS2 Fan and claim "My system has as many third parties as yours does."

I'm just saying that, all things taking into consideration, Nintendo's path doesn't lie along traditionally challenging Sony or MS where their strengths lie. I don't doubt Nintendo's commitment to technology, indeed, I see technology as a major part of Nintendo because they've tied in innovation into their hardware design as well (especially in terms of input devices and controllers). I'd be the first in line to argue that the GC is technically superior than the PS2.

But whether or not Nintendo is up to par technically is NOT the issue. The issue is that Nintendo cannot hope to gain ground by merely getting into a slugging match with Sony and Microsoft on technology specs. In the long run, Nintendo just isn't the type of company that would win that meaningless competition.

And that's really just a sub issue of my major idea that Nintendo cannot hope to survive/compete by merely emulating their opponents: they must also continue the very traditions which make them Nintendo after all: a commitment to quality game design at the expense of all else, a faith that they'll be rewarded marketwise for their unique vision, as opposed to punished for taking the road less travelled.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
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Offline vudu

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #115 on: March 18, 2004, 11:26:05 AM »
when has nintendo ever attempted to "emulate its opponents"?

nintendo was in the video game industry before sony or microsoft, and i don't recall nintendo ever attempting to compete based on meaningless hype.  
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #116 on: March 18, 2004, 11:32:19 AM »
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But whether or not Nintendo is up to par technically is NOT the issue. The issue is that Nintendo cannot hope to gain ground by merely getting into a slugging match with Sony and Microsoft on technology specs. In the long run, Nintendo just isn't the type of company that would win that meaningless competition.


That I completely agree with- Nintendo isn't the kind of company that will push specs, and hence has no clue how market in the way that Sony and MS have. Nintendo takes a much more honest and modest role- while Sony and MS were vastly inflating their specs, Nintendo actually lowballed their specs.

Quote

when has nintendo ever attempted to "emulate its opponents"?


He's not saying Nintendo is trying to emulate their opponents, he's saying that option is not open to Nintendo. Nintendo can't emulate their opponents because they use entirely different methods to attain the same results. Similarly, Nintendo's opponents could not emulate them.  
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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2004, 09:15:52 AM »
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MS and Sony may be very technically capable companies, but Nintendo released a product that is more advanced than Sony's and at the very least on par with Microsoft's- that's certainly nothing to scoff at.


the Nintendo console uses the older ATI chip, whereas the MS console uses the souped up GForce.  From the texture capabilities i've seen, i'm sure Nintendo has the capability to be graphically excellent in its own regard, but when compared to the Xbox, it will always be slightly edged out.

Quote

But whether or not Nintendo is up to par technically is NOT the issue. The issue is that Nintendo cannot hope to gain ground by merely getting into a slugging match with Sony and Microsoft on technology specs. In the long run, Nintendo just isn't the type of company that would win that meaningless competition.


A lot of the console comparison is meaningless competition, but it's what sells to developers and buyers, and will always be reflected in the quantity/quality of games.

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #118 on: March 19, 2004, 09:45:32 AM »
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the Nintendo console uses the older ATI chip, whereas the MS console uses the souped up GForce.


Wrong- the Gamecube does not use an ATI chip at all. ArtX is the company that designed Flipper, and they were bought out by ATI shortly before actual production of the Gamecube began (which is why you see the ATI sticker on your Gamecube). It's ArtX's contributions that ATI incorporated into their newer Radeon video cards. In any case, I think the Gamecube has shown in games like Rogue Leader, Rebel Strike, Wind Waker, Twin Snakes, and now Resident Evil 4 that is every bit as good as the XBox when it comes to texturing. In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Gamecube can do 8 textures per pass as opposed to the XBox's 4. Read this- it's a very good explanation of why the Gamecube is at least as powerful as the XBox.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #119 on: March 19, 2004, 10:52:15 PM »
While tech specs are certainly important in marketting, My point is that competing forely for the most technolocigically advanfce system is not a battle in which Nintendo can expect to come out on top when it's up against companies like Microsoft or Sony.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2004, 06:22:36 AM »
I know that, I was simply pointing out some errors Kyosho had in his post.
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Offline Kyosho

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2004, 01:29:36 AM »
read the article, and if anything it's only using numbers.  There simply is not enough PROOF in the games that says the GC hardware is better overall.  Also to mention, all the multi-console games i've seen, Xbox comes out as the best looking.  Perhaps it might be because developers like the Xbox's architecture better, but nevertheless there still is not enough evidence.  Until developers start regularly SHOWING the proclaimed TRUE power of the GC, then opinion stands as is, despite how many critics that disagree.  Should I believe in actual images or critics? You try and make the logical assumption.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2004, 02:55:20 AM »
I know a person who, by means of mediocre/crappy third-party games deducted  that the GC is a lot weaker than the PS2. Is this the case? No.
I'd guess the coding interface for the Box is just easier to use (or more exactly, they are used to it) than the GC's devkit and therefore those cheap third-parties can easier take advantage of it. And GC dev-budgets tend to be lower as well.

What we definitely know is that the GC can draw distortions and reflections at minimal performance loss. Look at the crystals and the water in FFCC, for example. Sega either didn't manage to do the same on the XBox or it has a higher performance impact, whatever it is, the Box didn't have distortions in PSO for that reason. I hope those "fast distortions" become more common soon, especially on the PC. They'd be really useful for a lot of things. Especially things like Superweapons in games like UT.

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2004, 01:19:19 PM »
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Should I believe in actual images or critics? You try and make the logical assumption.


Images often lie- look at Resident Evil remake and Resident Evil 0. Both games look incredible, but that is almost entirely because nearly all of the backrounds are prerendered, which leaves polygons and whatnot to put towards the character models. Halo 2 works upon the same principle- it uses less polygons than Halo, but because that frees up power to bumpmap quite literally everything in the game it looks a lot better than its predecessor. Just because a game looks better doesn't mean it's more advanced. Technically speaking, Rogue Leader and Rebel strike are the two most graphically advanced console games to date. They both push more polygons with more effects at a higher and more consistant framerate than any other console game period- I believe the only exceptions are Aquanox and Auqanox 2 for the PC.  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2004, 07:23:55 PM »
(Halo 2 looks f###ing ugly. Not because of the tech, but because of the usage. Didn't anybody tell them that those hand painted normal maps look messy as hell?)

Images can be deceiving. Especially since we're playing with subjective perception. What one person considers better the other considers worse. For example, I'll go out and say that Prime and FFCC look waaay better than UT2004 (or Halo, for that matter). Does that mean the Gamecube is more powerful than my 1.8 GHz machine? Or do the specs mean my machine is more powerful, even though the results look worse and have a lower framerate?

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2004, 05:53:54 PM »
Well, like I said i used to work @ EB and play games there non stop.  Staring at those game system systems all day long gives u a somewhat good idea of the general graphics capability.  But keep in mind it's not limited to just textures only.  I've seen developers have severe problems with anti-aliasing on Nintendo's system (from IGN's head 2 head pictures).   I'd like to see some documentation on how to use Nintendo's graphics efficiently.

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2004, 06:58:26 PM »
Kyosho: Why should it matter that a few crappy third party ports have some jaggies on the Gamecube when there are games vastly more advanced that sport no jaggies whatsoever (Resident Evil 4, Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Rebel Strike). Find me a Gamecube game with jaggies and I guarantee you the XBox version has them, too. That's an issue with developer incompotence, not console power.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2004, 07:51:07 PM »
"Why should it matter that a few crappy third party ports have some jaggies on the Gamecube when there are games vastly more advanced that sport no jaggies whatsoever (Resident Evil 4, Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Rebel Strike)."

Though I think a lot of ignorant people think differently I agree.  A console's graphic capabilities is determined by its best looking games not its worst.  If you go by the worst looking games then the PS2 is going to get absolutely creamed.

Of course the real way people measure is whatever way makes their favourite console appear to be the best.  Therefore Metal Gear Solid 2 gets compared to Spy Hunter and FMV gets compared to real game footage.

I do however think that the Cube's graphic capabilities would be more accurately potrayed to the ignorant masses if Nintendo released better screen shots of their top games.  Super Mario Sunshine in particular had some REALLY bad shots released by Nintendo.  The first time I saw a shot of that game I thought it looked like Super Mario 64.

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2004, 09:15:56 PM »
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Why should it matter that a few crappy third party ports have some jaggies on the Gamecube when there are games vastly more advanced that sport no jaggies whatsoever


Because I don't always buy the exclusive Nintendo games? Nintendo is my ONLY console this generation, and no I did not buy it for the exclusives.   I don't know if you're an Insider or not, but go look at the head 2 heads that IGN does.  They show you the image captures side by side along with commentary.  But like most of you said, graphics are secondary for Nintendo.  Gameplay is first.  Seems fit.

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RE:Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2004, 09:30:07 PM »
Kyosho, you have completely missed my point. The poor quality of the graphics in the games you're buying is NOT because of any hardware limitations, it's because of DEVELOPER limitations- in other words, the guys making those games don't know how to make good graphics. The Gamecube can obviously do much more, as games like Rebel Strike, Wind Waker, Resident Evil 4, and Metroid Prime have shown us- whether or not the Gamecube has the power to run these half assed 3rd party ports is a moot point- not only can it run them, but it can run them at least as well as the XBox. I'm sorry you're dissapointed with how your multiplatform games look on the Gamecube, but this is in no way, shape, or form the Gamecube's problem or Nintendo's fault- it's developer incompotence.

And I hope you weren't referring to Nintendo's prioritizing of gameplay in a sarcastic manner. Such an opinion will only win you the contempt of your peers.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Editorial: Don't Leave Me Now
« Reply #130 on: March 24, 2004, 06:40:15 AM »
Anyone who complains about the appearance of multiplatform Cube titles should check out Soul Calibur 2 as PROOF that the Cube can handle the same game as well as the other consoles when the developer actually gives a damn.