Topic: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 40

[NeoThunder]

Ok, something like mario kart DD with the sliding sparks there is nothing cheating about that, infact, it's not even cheap.  why.....because it's ment to be in the game and it's ment to be used.  

Your snaking method you speak of I probley wouldn't go as far to say cheating, it's kinda walking the line depending on how much of an advantage it weilds, but a cheap move to be sure.  Since seeing it you could probley understand how it is being done, thats what kinda makes it not cheating.  Plus it doesn't take that much effort to do, we are talking about a move you normally in the game, just doing it over and over and over to weild yourself an advantage.....hmm, da ja vue.

I think if you were playing someone who didn't use that snaking method but the only way you could beat them was to use it.  I wouldn't say that makes you a better player.  So if you play people who don't use it and you always use it, I don't see how you would asertain your skill.  The only way would be if you both use it.  Again, if you both have to do it....whats the point, why not play it the way it was ment to be played in the first place?

My examples of cheapness, that I consider cheating mostly involve halo2, since that has been the game I have played online with others the most.  One thing cheaters used to do is what was called "the dummy glitch".  It allowed a player to get into a warthog jeep, and with some button presses and constant button pressing, that player could be driven to the enemy base however could not be seen or damaged while they were at the other base, infact, could stay there as long as they want without being discovered.  In a shoot-em up match this didn't really matter, however, in a capture the flag, it allowed that player to grap the enemy flag, then transport all the way back to his base and score within just a few short seconds of the flag being taken.  Many people used the excuse to themselves of saying, "it's in the game, so it's not cheating"....but come on, if you have that mindset....what goes on in your head.  How can you bullsh*t yourself into believing your not a cheater when you clearly are.  Bungie aknowledged on their website that this was indeed cheating and players shouldn't do it, and in turn, that particular glitch was patched by bungie and can't be exploited anymore, but their are still other glitches that allow you to jump extreamly high that allow you to get up on top of places that you normally can't get to, and would give you an advantage.....hence the term, and unfair advantage.

Again, just cause it's in the game....doesn't mean that it's not cheating....more than likely it means it was a glitch overlooked by developers.

[KDR_11k]

Plus it doesn't take that much effort to do, we are talking about a move you normally in the game, just doing it over and over and over to weild yourself an advantage.....hmm, da ja vue.

I think snaking is harder than normal driving, you still lose if you screw up but you have more ways to screw up (e.g. drift too far, activate boost too slowly, ...) making the game require more skill at that level. It's different from using a move over and over again in a game where you have multiple ways of doing something (e.g. attacks in a fighting game) since in that case every option has a counter option it loses against and spamming one move is a surefire way to get a humiliating defeat. Same goes for e.g. Zerg rushes, if you keep doing that your opponents will quickly know your playstyle, counter your rush and destroy you in no time (I've even seen Starcraft veterans call zerg rushes an insult because they work only against weak opponents and using them is akin to calling someone an idiot).

I think if you were playing someone who didn't use that snaking method but the only way you could beat them was to use it. I wouldn't say that makes you a better player. So if you play people who don't use it and you always use it, I don't see how you would asertain your skill. The only way would be if you both use it. Again, if you both have to do it....whats the point, why not play it the way it was ment to be played in the first place?

Because you'd have to add stupid arbitrary rules to prevent it. The distinction between normal powerslides and snaking is very small and you'd have a hard time deciding what a player can and cannot do. Therefore it's simpler to assume a player who plays at tournament level knows the game well enough to know such obvious tricks. Realistically noone's naive enough to walk into a tournament when he doesn't know about such tricks (or at least he'll lose in the qualification rounds), that's like playing a fighting game and not knowing your combos.

One thing cheaters used to do is what was called "the dummy glitch". It allowed a player to get into a warthog jeep, and with some button presses and constant button pressing, that player could be driven to the enemy base however could not be seen or damaged while they were at the other base, infact, could stay there as long as they want without being discovered.

That's the kind of glitch that would be either banned in a tournament or get the game/map/gametype removed until it's fixed (unless it wasn't of any practical use). However, many other glitches in games are permitted like the roll cancelling, wave dashing, strafe running, etc. We're talking about the latter kind, small glitches used to improve your play rather than huge bugs used to skip half the game. Though I think a game with huge bugs wouldn't be allowed in a tournament, they'd wait until it's patched or a sequel is released that doesn't have these issues.

[NeoThunder]

Well, again you missed my point.....
I gave an example of something thats in the game and to exploit it is clearly cheating.  The statement I kept hearing was, "it's not cheating if it's in the game".  Thats clearly not true, and you didn't aknowlege that.....even though thats what the arguement is clearly about.  Just because it's in the game doesn't make it not cheating!!!!!!!!!

Sadly you have to use your brain to determain if something is unfair, and clearly nobody seems to want to do that.

[KDR_11k]

Last I checked this thread was started with a debate about things like wavedashing, not "teleportation" exploits. Also, with a good game you can just say "if it's in the game it's okay" and play, only bad games have exploits that can ruin the gameplay.

[Entroper]

Exploits that mess with a game's gameplay only make it a bad game if everyone insists on using them.

[NeoThunder]

Good point, and an adendem to that if I may...

It's not bad games, it's bad people who sit there and waste their time seeing what they can get away with in the game.  Seeing what glitches there are that can be achieved by doing certain things.   Then other cheaters see it, then ask and are told or watch and try to duplicate what they see.

So....what kinda cheater are you?......a leader or a follower, i'm not sure whats worse though

[KDR_11k]

Exploits that mess with a game's gameplay only make it a bad game if everyone insists on using them.

In a tournament you need very clear rules to make sure everyone is on the same page. You can only block exploits that are clear when used. For example a Madden game had a bug that allowed draining the other team's stamina by selecting different plays before starting. While heavy abuse would be clear it's subtle abuse that can't be detected yet make a difference. E.g. a player wants one play but deliberately pretends he's indecisive and changes 2-3 times instead of once. Are you going to disqualify him for not making his decision in one go? Or a popular real-life exploit, counting cards in Blackjack. How do you spot that except for the standard casino policy "if he's winning he's obviously cheating"? Therefore it is important to pick a game that has no damaging subtle exploits in first place.

It's not bad games, it's bad people who sit there and waste their time seeing what they can get away with in the game. Seeing what glitches there are that can be achieved by doing certain things. Then other cheaters see it, then ask and are told or watch and try to duplicate what they see.

You'll play against those people one way or another so you better make sure you know what he's doing and what that means. If you never snake in MK but play an opponent who is snaking you should better know how to do that.

Also I believe there was some discussion about spamming one move. I still say that if that succeeds something sucks, either the game or the losing player. A good game doesn't need a gentlemen's agreement not to use one move to work.

[NeoThunder]

Well, I play to have fun.  Winning doesn't mean anything to me if I had to cheat, glitch, or cheap my way to a win.  

I guess some people have other reasons to play a game.

For the record I was never referring to tournaments.  Yes, a tournament is going to be more agressive and your seeking a prize of some sort.  I was always referencing online play, play that doesn't matter other than the fact to get on and play and have fun.  How you can sit there and say,"whats the point if you don't win", is very sad.  Your never going to win every game.  If you can't walk away from a game in second place or lower and tell the other person(s), "good game".  Maybe that should say something about your sportsmanship

[Jonnyboy117]

The very nature of a tournament like Evolution means that people aren't playing for fun but rather to win, no matter what.  There's nothing unethical about using a technique like wavedashing; it is a quirk of the game's physics engine that requires no special equipment or other modification of the game to use.  I agree that it makes the game less fun, and in casual play I would not battle against someone who uses it.  But this tournament isn't casual play, and the people who are in it to win it don't care if wavedashing makes the battles less fun.

When I used to play a lot of Magic: The Gathering Online, if I could tell within the first few turns that the other player was using a common strategy which I find to be annoying and too specialized to counter in an otherwise great, well-rounded deck, I would just concede and spare both of us the wasted time.  I would never have suggested that such strategies be banned from the playing environment, but if players insist on doing things that make the game less fun, I insist on disallowing them the opportunity to play against me, and so did many other players.  In other words, they had a hard time finding anyone to play a full game against their annoying strategies.  (For the Magic literate, I am mostly referring to focused land destruction, although there were a couple of others depending on the current meta-game.)

[Entroper]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The very nature of a tournament like Evolution means that people aren't playing for fun but rather to win, no matter what.  There's nothing unethical about using a technique like wavedashing; it is a quirk of the game's physics engine that requires no special equipment or other modification of the game to use.  I agree that it makes the game less fun, and in casual play I would not battle against someone who uses it.  But this tournament isn't casual play, and the people who are in it to win it don't care if wavedashing makes the battles less fun.

When I used to play a lot of Magic: The Gathering Online, if I could tell within the first few turns that the other player was using a common strategy which I find to be annoying and too specialized to counter in an otherwise great, well-rounded deck, I would just concede and spare both of us the wasted time.  I would never have suggested that such strategies be banned from the playing environment, but if players insist on doing things that make the game less fun, I insist on disallowing them the opportunity to play against me, and so did many other players.  In other words, they had a hard time finding anyone to play a full game against their annoying strategies.  (For the Magic literate, I am mostly referring to focused land destruction, although there were a couple of others depending on the current meta-game.)

This I can get on board with.  The sentiments expressed by others seemed to imply that if I lose to someone playing 'cheaply', then I need more practice.  Maybe if my goal is to win a tournament, sure, I need more practice, but if my goal is to have fun, then I need to either ask my opponent not to be cheap, or stop playing against him.

I still think that a tournament should be fun, and both the players and organizers should care about making it fun.  But if people want to spend their time practicing exploits to compete in a win-at-all-costs tournament, I suppose I can't stop them.

[WindyMan]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The very nature of a tournament like Evolution means that people aren't playing for fun but rather to win, no matter what.  There's nothing unethical about using a technique like wavedashing; it is a quirk of the game's physics engine that requires no special equipment or other modification of the game to use.  I agree that it makes the game less fun, and in casual play I would not battle against someone who uses it.  But this tournament isn't casual play, and the people who are in it to win it don't care if wavedashing makes the battles less fun.

When I used to play a lot of Magic: The Gathering Online, if I could tell within the first few turns that the other player was using a common strategy which I find to be annoying and too specialized to counter in an otherwise great, well-rounded deck, I would just concede and spare both of us the wasted time.  I would never have suggested that such strategies be banned from the playing environment, but if players insist on doing things that make the game less fun, I insist on disallowing them the opportunity to play against me, and so did many other players.  In other words, they had a hard time finding anyone to play a full game against their annoying strategies.  (For the Magic literate, I am mostly referring to focused land destruction, although there were a couple of others depending on the current meta-game.)

You say that you have a hard time finding someone who doesn't employ strategy.  Are you saying that when these people play against each other, they aren't having fun?  Is "fun" only reserved for those that play only casually?  At any level, people try to outwit and outsmart their opponents, using any tool within the rules of the game.  If you can find someone at your level and you have a good battle, you'll have fun, win or lose.  If a pro can find someone at his level and have a good battle, he will have fun, win or lose (but usually win).  Whether or not the higher levels of competition are more fun than the lowers is debatable, but there's much more to consider and much more at stake in higher-level or tournament play that most will tell you they wouldn't have it any other way.

You're failing to take into account what the other guy is thinking.  Yeah, he wants to win.  But why would he play if he didn't want to have fun?  The point of competition is to apply your skills against someone else doing the same to you.  If you meet or exceed your abilities, most of the time you will walk away satisfied with your performance, win or lose.  If an experienced person comes across an inexperienced person and beats the crap out of them, neither person will have fun.  Just because the winner won doesn't mean he got much enjoyment or satisfaction out of it.  I know, I've been there (on both ends).  The difference is the experienced man will play anyway, because he knows the more games he plays and the more opponents he faces, the more tools and tricks he will have in his arsenal for when he actually needs them.

And Jonny, remember that you, as well as most people on these forums, have been playing Super Smash Bros. Melee for four or five years.  Everyone playing it for that long is already on a higher plane than those who haven't; in other words, you've been engaging in high-level play without even realizing it.  (I bet you're having a lot of fun playing it, aren't you?)  The inclusion of SSBB in Evolution is significant because it will show everyone just how high the bar can go—and the amazing things that happen when hundreds of people try to set it higher with every match.

[KDR_11k]

I think the problem with his game was that it's badly balanced so most of the options would never be used by anyone who doesn't want to lose unnecessarily and anyone who played it seriously used one out of a very small set of strategies.

[NeoThunder]

remember that bone turtle in mario kart DS....or MKDS as all of you people seem to not be able to spell crap out.  
Well, if anyone knows whenever you go up against someone online playing as this kart.  There's no way you can win.  Simply put, that kart goes way faster than all the others.

Well, I know it's legal, and it's not cheating.  However, I still hate the fact that even though you go threw and  unlock this kart, your allowed to use it online.  There is no balance, unless all use this kart, it's not equal.  If there is one person using this kart....I haven't played a game that doesn't end up the bone cart winning.

Again, this isn't cheating....but it's still unfair to make a game that isn't balanced.

[KDR_11k]

I say MK because I don't know which versions are affected.

Again, this isn't cheating....but it's still unfair to make a game that isn't balanced.

I doubt they went "hey, let's make this game imba!". Often imbalances stem from the developer not knowing all possible strategies or just careless balancing without bothering to really see what it does or just casually testing something. E.g. the balance tests were in a clean environment or forgetting that the player can do some things the AI can't or the testers just weren't great players, ....

[NeoThunder]

I think it would be balanced and fair if they turned off the bone turtle on Wi-Fi connection

[vudu]

I just got around to listening to this podcast.  Karl is the biggest whiner on the face of the earth.

Quote
Oh, boo hoo, Nintendo should let me play stuff that I haven't paid for.  They're not catering to my every whim.  Stop thinking of yourself for once and start thinking about me, the consumer.  Blah blah blah, whoa is me.

If you're just downloading a demo and then playing it repeatedly and not buying the game you're not a consumer.  Nintendo doesn't care about you and never will.  Windy should have pimp smacked you right through your Mac.

EDIT:  I just listened to some more; see what's coming down the grapevine?  Seriously?

for all intensive purposes

[KDR_11k]

Whiny... Mac... No, that has to be a coincidence.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

vudu, it's the mentality of not catering more to their userbase is what's killed Nintendo's mindshare in the past, and as we saw with the N64 and GameCube, can lead to crippling results. Concerning demos, I'm not asking for a lot - just a hard drive that I can BUY from them and store demos on should they become available. Is it so much to ask that I should be able to store something I've downloaded? If it was a streaming service, I wouldn't complain, but if I'm going to wait around as it finishes up (because, after all, it's not like the Wii offers background downloading like the 360 does, and as the PS3 soon will) I shouldn't have to repeat the process every time I want to boot it up. And if Nintendo isn't going to offer a hard drive, what about SD cards? All I want here are options instead of being told to bend to what Nintendo tells me I want.

Something I refuse to do is play the part of the Nintendo fan who does nothing but praise the company. That's gotten NWR in trouble a few times (because I'm certainly not the only person who feels that way) with the Nintendo crowd, but if I wanted to be an extension of NOA's Public Relations team, I'd be studying that instead of journalism. I love Nintendo as a company, and when they do something right, I'm usually the first in line to applaud them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to knock them down when they're acting foolish.

As for being a Mac user, I sincerely doubt that in my nine or ten months of owning my MacBook, I've somehow adopted a whiney persona, but hey, if that's what you want to believe, go for it.

Oh, and as for grapevine, it's not like I have these words out in front of me to read - it's all improvised, so there are verbal foibles. Can't help that.

[WindyMan]

Quote
Originally posted by: ViewtifulGamer
Something I refuse to do is play the part of the Nintendo fan who does nothing but praise the company. That's gotten NWR in trouble a few times (because I'm certainly not the only person who feels that way) with the Nintendo crowd, but if I wanted to be an extension of NOA's Public Relations team, I'd be studying that instead of journalism. I love Nintendo as a company, and when they do something right, I'm usually the first in line to applaud them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to knock them down when they're acting foolish.

Wait, when have we gotten into trouble?  We've never given Nintendo praise unless they've done something earn it.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

I'm referring to specials we've run like the GameCube 64 Blah Blah Blah where people were calling Jonny a "former fan" and such. Or Evan's Zelda editorial.

[vudu]

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I shouldn't have to repeat the process every time I want to boot it up.

A demo isn't supposed to replace a game purchased at retail.  Nintendo might not want you to easily be able to play a demo anytime you want (and rightfully so).  The point of a demo is to try a small portion of a game to see if you would be interested in purchasing the full product.  If you can play the same portion of the game over and over again you might be less likely to purchase the game.

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Something I refuse to do is play the part of the Nintendo fan who does nothing but praise the company.

Criticism against Nintendo is fine.  Most of us are big boys (and girls) who can form our own opinions.  The majority of us tend to respect each other and are open to hearing opposing viewpoints.  However, that's something that's completely different from moaning about something you don't like and making idle threats like you refuse to buy the next Nintendo system because they won't let you download demos straight to your system.  I don't honestly believe you'd go so far as not to buy another Nintendo product in order to make a convoluted point.  I'm not going to say you definitely will buy the next system because it's much too early to even speculate that and there are countless unknowns at this point.  However, I will go so far as to make the bold statement that if you don't buy another Nintendo system it will not be because Nintendo doesn't allow you to download and store Wii demos.

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As for being a Mac user, I sincerely doubt that in my nine or ten months of owning my MacBook, I've somehow adopted a whiney persona,

I wasn't insinuating that using a Mac was making you any more or less whiny.  The fact is you use a Mac so Windy would have to smack you through that.  If you somehow used WebTV to connect to the Internet and record your podcasts I would have referenced that.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

Concerning Demos: I agree that a demo isn't a valid substitute for the real game. That's why Nintendo shouldn't be afraid to release them for fear of people not buying the retail version. That being said, there's no reason to take it out of my hands once I play through it a few times. I may download it, play around with it, and be on the fence about it. I might want to pick it up again later to get more time in (and who knows when I'll want to play it again - maybe a few hours, days, or even months down the line). Why not have a hard drive or SD card to store it on until then? Nintendo is really building their image on this "ease of use" ideal, and options are a big part of that. So why not have the option?

Concerning Leaving Nintendo: You're right, and it would be hyperbole if I said not having a hard drive to store demos would lead me away from ever purchasing Nintendo hardware again, but the way that conversation progressed, Steven said that since Nintendo already had my money, they no longer had to worry about keeping my happy (not his exact words, but that's how I understood it). My point was that if Nintendo is going to continue that tradition, and let it leak into other facets of their strategy, then they're not someone I want to buy hardware from anymore. Obviously they're not at that point yet, but it remains something I stand by.

The Mac Thing: That actually wasn't aimed at you - I was talking to KDR. Sorry if it came off that way.

[NeoThunder]

Even demo's on xbox live will sometimes state that it "not the final version, and doesn't necesarily reflect the final product".  

Still, even if I had to redownload the demo to try it out...I would be ok with that.  I think demo's just are that, and there's no reason to keep them on a hard drive so you can keep coming back to them.

If Nintendo is worried about that I think the whole, once you turn off your Wii you lose the demo (just like DS download stations) would be a good idea.  It would encourage those who would think to do that to maybe go out and buy the game, and it would allow some demoing of games before they are bought.

[KDR_11k]

Would that mean deleting the demo upon bootup? Remember, most games barely fit one room into the RAM because they can just load the next one when they need to so you'd need some space on the flash or SD anyway.