Messages

1

TalkBack / RE:Nintendo Gets Investor Support for GBA

« on: April 28, 2004, 06:51:31 AM »

A console's success can be measured just by units sold (I don't agree with this parameter, but still it's not wrong), but it's a short-sighted comparison. The thing is that Microsoft proved with the X-Box that it can be a viable force in the console market, that it won't just say "Screw you guys, I'm going home" and leave it's system in the gutter if things go bleak. Now when Microsoft releases it's next console people won't see it as the newcomer looking for a quick buck, it'll stand shoulder to shoulder to Sony's next and Nintendo's next. Besides, as noted before, the X-Box wasn't created to generate cash, it was created to show everybody that their comitment to console gaming was serious, so I'd say that the X-Box was a success, and I bet Microsoft thinks the same, it may not have sold well but it sure was successful. Plus, it also showed the developers that it was a viable plataform for their games, so you can bet that 3rd party support won't be a problem for the X-Box 2.

Lord knows what Nintendo wanted with the Gamecube, but I'll tell you what it didn't want to: Fix the mistakes regarding 3rd party support that plaged the N64. Nintendo, for better or worse, plays the game by it's own rules, and they design their consoles for their own needs, not the needs of other developers. As much as they say they lowered licencing fees and made the Cube an easy machine to develop for they still ignored everything the PS2 had (And like it or not the PS2 is the standard of this generation) and created the least viable plataform to develop for in this generation. Most people buy Nintendo consoles to play Nintendo games, but instead of changing that (And build *the* console to own) they're contend with it, therefore right now Nintendo makes great "secondary systems" as most Cube owners have a PS2 or a X-Box as their main system. And right now I'd say that of the big 3 Nintendo has the worst image with the public and with developers, regardless of how well the Cube performed, and that doesn't bode well for it's future.

Of course, as long as there are people like me (And like most of you, I bet) Nintendo will sell consoles but right now I'd say that Microsoft has a bigger chance of dethroning (Bet I wrote that wrong) Sony than Nintendo. Not that I think Sony can be removed from the top anymore...

Oh yeah, and on topic: That's good to hear and I hope Nintendo delivers on those expectations, otherwise their stocks may plummet again after this year's E3.

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TalkBack / RE:EA Announces The URBZ

« on: April 21, 2004, 04:55:45 PM »

If the game is good I don't care if it's title sounds retarded (C´mon, "Mega Man" and "Super Mario Bros" aren't the coolest names around). And seeing how Maxis is developing it I'm gonna give the game the benefit of doubt for now.

But still, URBZ is one of the dumbest names I heard in this generation of consoles.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Bad Tales of Symphonia news

« on: April 15, 2004, 08:41:44 AM »

You know, it's funny how a good night of sleep can open your eyes...

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And I don't think a game like Prince of Persia or Beyond Good & Evil would have benefited from exclusivity.

That is a lie. I realise now that yesterday I was looking at things from a very simple minded black and white point of view.

Exclusivity can indeed benefit certain games since console makers tend to market them much more effectively. Look at games like Sudeki and Killzone, I doubt they would be getting this much attention if not for Microsoft and Sony hyping them to hell and back.

A game like Ninja Gaiden probably benefited from being a X-Box exclusive as well.

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However, in a saturated market even good games on the largest platform can fail. I've read an article of underrated games, many of which were on PS2 and released right next to a really big seller (e.g. RPGs close to Final Fantasy, etc). As you can see from Soul Calibur 2, if there is no competition to speak of your game will sell much better. Tales of Symphonia should have a similar advantage on the GC. Heh, would be funny if the GC version outsold the PS2 version because some big name title (let's say GTA: San Andreas or Final Fantasy XII, for the japanese market maybe another Dragon Quest) gets released on PS2...

Of course releasing a game next to a heavy hitter will hurt your sales, but that's not a reason to release it for a different plataform, it's a reason to delay your game.

The reason why Soul Calibur 2 sold so well on the Cube isn't due to the plataform's lack of fighting games, it was because Link was featured as a guest character. It appealed to the Zelda fanbase, not to the fighting fanbase.

And I hope said advantage helps ToS in the NGC, but I don't know if it will be able to reach past the small base of RPG fans in the console. I still maintain that it has a better chance of succeeding in the PS2 as long as they do'nt release it next to Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, of course.

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BTW, if you're going with attachment rates SSBM sold about as well as GTAVC.

Given how the SSB series has a rabid fanbase in Japan and stars some of the most well-known game characters in the world it's not that surprising that it sold so well. The surprise was how GTA III sold so well, seeing how GTA and GTA2 were hardly system sellers, but that does prove that word of mouth, hype and controversy can be very powerful marketing tools.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Bad Tales of Symphonia news

« on: April 14, 2004, 05:18:29 PM »

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You raise some good points, but I guarantee that all the examples I used as good selling games would sell much worse were they multiplatform. Look at us as Nintendo fans! A lot of us don't even consider games that aren't exclusive. Besides that, exclusive games generally turn out better since the developer's resources are not being spread over multiple platforms- when they can focus on just one the game almost always turns out better, although that varies, of course. And I'm not saying developers should IGNORE straight sales, just that they shouldn't ignore proportional sales- I believe the opposite is true as well.

The sad truth about today's game market is that the fans account for very little market share compared to the casual gamers, so even though some fans may refuse to buy a port if the game interests Casual Joe he will buy it.

Casual Joe doesn't want to buy a new console for each game he wants to play, so most stick to games for the console they already own, and that's where the PS2 allure lies for developers. It has the most diverse userbase, so if you throw a game at them it has a bigger chance to hit a group that will like it.

And another reason most exclusive games you mentioned sold well was because they were targeted at the right audience: Halo benefited from Microsoft's marketing money and from being the must own of the X-Box's launch, plus most of it's audience consisted initially of PC gamers, so FPS has a big appeal for them. GT3 was released for the console with the largest number of sport fans. Final Fantasy X was released for the largest RPG fanbase. You get the picture...

But I still think games like GTAIII, KotOR or Devil May Cry would have sold better if they weren't exclusives. And I don't think a game like Prince of Persia or Beyond Good & Evil would have benefited from exclusivity.

As a gamer I obviously prefer developers to make games from the ground up to a certain plataform - as you said, they tend to look better, play better and sound better as well. All I'm saying is that even though as a gamer I like that philosophy, if I had stocks of a game company I would want it to focus on the safest market, and a cruel peculiarity of the gaming business is that not only is the PS2 the safest market but it's also the most profitable...

...OK, it's late here and I'm getting sleepy. I'm out of here.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Bad Tales of Symphonia news

« on: April 14, 2004, 04:38:46 PM »

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Heh, Sega can afford to give consoles exclusives? Sega dropped out of the console business because they were billions of dollars in debt, and still lost money for a while as a 3rd party. It wasn't until recently that they started turning a profit, and I guarantee you that debt is still very much there. Sega can hardly afford to give consoles exclusives. Look at the sales, though- it's the exclusive games that sell the best (the only real exception being Madden NFL)- Halo, GTA3, Vice City, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Mario. My point is that if companies ONLY look at total sales, every game should be on the PS2 and probably the PS2 alone, yet that doesn't happen because that logic doesn't work. You can't look at JUST the sales figures, because if you do you end up with a one console industry (as I said), which in turn leads to a monopoly.

Sega got pretty cocky after they went 3rd party, and decided that the best course of action would be to attach certain franchises to certain consoles, and as a result it still lost money. Now they're making money again, by releasing most of their games for the PS2 and releasing certain proven franchises for all 3. That's a pretty strong example of why the "numbers make games" logic work.

Games like Halo, GTA3, Vice City and Zelda don't sell well because they're exclusive - They sell well because they're good. But I guarantee you that no matter how well Knights of the Republic sold on the Box it would have sold even better on the PS2, and that's why smaller game companies choose it as their plataform of choice. Zelda and Mario sell well on the Cube because they're the reason most people buy Nintendo consoles, but strip them of their names and legacy and I bet they wouldn't sell as well on it no matter how good they are - The Gamecube has proven quite a few times that non-franchise games aren't that viable on it while the PS2 market has been more receptive to them (Not by much, but still they sell better on it).

Game developers, like all business, live and breath by the botton line. Meaning that it's money that keeps them alive, so if they don't look at total sales (Which reflect how much money they can make in return to their investiment) to decide which console to support then at what do they look at? Why are most japanese developers releasing games for the PS2? Do I think the fact that of the 10 best selling games in Japan 9 are PS2 games has anything to do with that? Do I think that the fact that whenever a game hits the 3 consoles the PS2 version usually sells much more than the other two has anything to do with that? Yes, I sure do.

If game developers didn't look at units sold, you'd be seeing much more support from japanese developers for the X-Box and much more mature games on the Gamecube.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Bad Tales of Symphonia news

« on: April 14, 2004, 04:14:21 PM »

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Using that logic, every game made this generation should be on the PS2 and probably just the PS2. Of COURSE games will sell better on the console with the biggest user base- if developers only looked at units sold and not proportional units sold we'd end up with a one-console industry again, complete with all the joys and wonders you've come to expect from a monopoly!

Yes, using that logic every game should be released on the PS2 (Not just on it, as ports open new markets to a game, and that's a good thing) - And frankly, can you honestly say that's not happening right now? Other than very big companies like Capcom, Tecmo and Sega (Who can afford to let their top game creators choose whatever console they want to develop for every once in a while) every other developer is, in fact, looking just at units sold. And that's just common business sense, as their immediate concern isn't to prevent a monopoly, but to regain the money invested in the making of a game.

That's why the PS2 and the X-Box get most of the releases. Why did the PS2 got Disgaea? Because it has the largest potential TRPG fanbase. Why did the X-Box get Breakdown? Because it has the largest potential FPS fanbase. Why did the Gamecube get Resident Evil 4? Because Mikami doesn't like the PS2, not because that type of game seels better on the Cube.

I'm not saying I like that logic, but it's undeniable that close to 90% of all game developers follow it.

 

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Bad Tales of Symphonia news

« on: April 14, 2004, 08:37:59 AM »

Q]The reason why it sold as much as it did in JPN is because they have 10 billion (exagerated) RPG's out there for PS2. Almost too many RPGs there. Its an issue of "more of the same" even though it shouldn't be. You are also comparing 2 systems with about a 10X difference in userbase. So 300k vs 800k isn't that bad in relation. Also that is a series (Eternia) more familiar to the Playstation owners. Whereas the games before in the Symphonia line have been mostly Nintendo based. The Japanese love their RPGs, and where are the buttload of rpgs in JPN?? On PS2.

300k vs 800k is bad, because game developers don't get money based on the ratio "units solds/user base", so even if a game reaches, say, 20% of all Cube users by selling 300k but only 5% of all PS2 owners by selling 800k for Namco it's still more profitable to release the game for the PS2. It's all about units sold.

...Before anyone says anything, I made those numbers up to illustrate a point, so they're probably inaccurate.

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They haven't even announced it yet for the US, so it's a good possibility the enhanced PS2 port is only meant for Japan, like many other enhanced versions like Kingdom Hearts Final Mix and Final Fantasy X-2 Last Mission. From a fanboyish point of view just look at the bright side. IF they'll release it, you're going to get it way sooner and the PS2 version won't likely look as bright and pretty as the GCN version.[

It's not the same thing - KH Final Mix and FFX-2 Last Mission are both PS2 games like KH and FFX-2, so you're basically trying to sell version 1.1 of a game to an audience that already has version 1.0. Meanwhile releasing the PS2 ToS will open a whole new potential market to the game, as there are several people who would like to play it but are not willing to buy a Cube just for that.

From a business standpoint Namco is doing the right thing (Why not release a RPG to the console with the highest number of RPG aficionados?), but that doesn't mean I have to like that...

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TalkBack / RE:Bigger GameCube Memory Cards Might be on the Way

« on: March 23, 2004, 09:37:57 AM »

I do hope they release it soon, my 251 memory card just ran out of space.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Viewtiful Joe 2

« on: March 15, 2004, 11:20:55 AM »

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one word. sweet. is this a reliable source?

The site is, but I don't know about the magazine from which they got the info.

In fact, the article's title in Outerspace is "Viewtiful Joe 2 a caminho? VJ confirmado pro PS2?", which translates to "Viewtiful Joe 2 on the way? VJ confirmed to the PS2?", they're basicaly reporting what Game Watch published, not confirming it's content.

But the picture looks pretty "official" to me.

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Nintendo Gaming / Viewtiful Joe 2

« on: March 15, 2004, 08:07:52 AM »

Did you hear that?

According to Game Watch (A Hong Kong gaming magazine) not only will VJ 1 be released for the PS2, but Capcom is already working on VJ 2.

For the first piece of artwork from VJ 2 (Featuring Joe and Silvia vs. a elephant-thing), check the link below:

http://www.outerspace.com.br/news/2004/marco/15a.asp

I couldn't be happier, as VJ is one of my fav. Cube games so far.

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Nintendo Gaming / For those who didn't buy Beyond Good & Evil...

« on: February 17, 2004, 04:23:27 PM »

No, I'm not gonna scream "Buy this game!" from the top of my lungs, nor will I harass you for not having the game.

What I want to know is why didn't you? I mean, this game seems like a perfect fit for a Gamecuber's library considering the type of games that sell well on the NGC.

My objective with this thread is to understand why BG&E failed to sell - Was a marketing issue? Did people thought Zelda was enough to fill their craving for adventure games? Did you think it's box was uninteresting? - Call it a morbid curiosity if you will, but I just want to know.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Prince of Persia Thread

« on: February 16, 2004, 04:22:23 PM »

Well, I don't think anybody remembers the first 2 PoPs for their "incredible" fighting sequences anyway...

And I'm rather pleased with PoP: SoT, as it's plataforming sequences really kept the original's spirit (Without the original difficulty, thankfully).

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:Resident Evil 4 Discussion

« on: February 13, 2004, 07:50:22 AM »

The game looks great and apparently they finally put the tank controls in a viewpoint that works, but I'm not too keen on the new storyline.

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TalkBack / RE:Burnout 3 Swerves to Miss GameCube

« on: February 12, 2004, 03:30:20 PM »

I know I'm probably starting to look like the devil's advocate, but here we go...

Thing is, there is nothing we can do. The simple truth is that in this generation it's unlikely things will get much better for the Gamecube.

And I don't think it was the 3rd parties fault either. If I were to point my finger at anyone it would be at Nintendo itself, since not only did it do nothing to counter the pre-concieved notions everybody had about it thanks to a lackluster performance by the N64 but it also played it's own game with little concern about the competition - Releasing a purple cube that looks like a child's toy isn't the best way to show you're gonna start cattering to the older demographic, nor is releasing a controller that's great for some games and awful for others (Plus it had fewer buttons than the others, which leads us to a version of SSX 3 with fewer tricks), not to mention that it's media has less storage space than the competition's (So some games have less extras or more compressed sound), it also encourages developers to use a feature that no other console has (I'm talking about connectivity - If you're guaranteed to make a proffit with a game you'll probably think about exploring something like that, but if you're not you'll come up with some half-assed implementation of it at best) and it released some accessories but didn't support it (Like the modem). If you make a developer jump too many hoops to release a game for you they probably won't bother unless you have the biggest user base. And it's not only the half-assed ports that don't sell on the Cube, sadly, but very competent versions also fail to make a profit.

And if memory serves, the Cube had pretty much the same treatment as the X-Box regarding 3rd party support in the beginning (Give or take a few games), but as time went on a lot of developers started to jump ship. Also, very few "adult" games sold well on the Cube, even a game like Eternal Darkness that had Nintendo's support behind it sold poorly, so it's not surprising to see games like Driver 3 and The Suffering getting the axe.

Sure as a gamer I hate that we are now getting rushed ports, late releases or seeing most games get cancelled, but viewing it from the 3rd party studio's standpoint I can't say I blame them.

And now Square-Enix released a Final Fantasy game for the Gamecube - Easily one of the strogest brands in the world of gaming - but instead of making it as accessible as possible to all Cube users both Nintendo an S-E came up with something that can only be truly enjoyed by a very narrow user base and that looks nothing like the direction the series is taking on the PS2. The casual will dismiss it as kiddy (Which is bad for the Cube's image) and most of the hardcore won't be able to fully enjoy it, so another chance to move units was lost. It's one thing to release a game like Tenki for the X-Box, since it doesn't exactly scream "system seller" anyway, but losing the opportunity to enjoy most of the retail advantages that come with the name Final Fantasy is lunacy.

In the end the Gamecube became the "other" console for most people, those who also have a X-Box will probably choose to buy multiplataform games for it, since they'll likely look better and those who have a PS2 will probably buy it's version, since it usually has additional features like online play or other extras (Plus most games are designed for it). That's where Nintendo stands now, but how it got there is mostly it's own fault.

...Not that Nintendo is complaining, since it's still laughing all the way to the bank.

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TalkBack / RE:Burnout 3 Swerves to Miss GameCube

« on: February 12, 2004, 10:51:02 AM »

Odd, I read in another site that Metal Arms sold better in the Box, with PS2 in second and Cube in third. But regardless, when I mentioned those games I didn't mean to say that they were all smashing hits on the other consoles while the Cube version gathered dust on shelves - All I wanted to show was that they sold the worst on the Cube when compared to the other versions.

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It is true that 3rd party titles generally do worse on the Gamecube, and for very good reasons, but the titles you listed were very poor examples.

They were the only examples of games released last year that came to mind, they may be poor choices but I felt they still illustrated my point (Looks like I was wrong, though). Sure you could say that the reason why the NGC version of SSX 3 sold worst was because it didn't have one trick featured on the other versions (Which in turn removed a lot of trick combinations from the game), but the casual gamer doesn't know this and nowdays they're one of the most important factors to move inventory in retail.

And you said it yourself - 3rd party titles generally do worse on the Gamecube - you just answered why won't EA release Burnout 3 for the Gamecube (At least not at the same time as the other versions) and that's why it doesn't surprise me that more and more multiplataform titles skip it altogether.

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Didn't most of the games you mentioned come out for the Cube at the very least a few weeks after the other versions were released?

Some did, but Sonic Heroes came first for the Cube, so we could argue that the only reason it sold better on it was because of that single factor (And I doubt that was the only reason). Plus, SSX 3, T.H.U.G., LotR:RotK and NfS:U (Most EA games, humm...) were simultaneous releases and performed poorly on the NGC when compared to the other consoles.

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Plus I found that with most of those games the Cube versions was incredibly scarce.

An example of sef-fullfilling prophecy - Nobody expects the Cube version to sell so nobody stocks it, which results in poor sales since the other versions are so readly available. I think that's the retailer's fault, not the publisher, but I could be wrong.

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It comes down to this: if a third party f*cks us over, we f*ck them over.

But then you'll fall in another s-f prophecy: We don't buy the games because the 3rd party doesn't put as much effort in the Cube as it does to the other consoles and the 3rd party either releases Cube versions late, or releases a half-assed port, or doesn't release the game at all because they don't sell. In the end the 3rd party complains that there's no money to be made in the Gamecube and we complain that the Gamecube has a poor 3rd party support and nobody wins.

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In any case, there's absolutely no reason for EA not to release Burnout 3 on the Gamecube. Firstly, Burnout sold very well on the Gamecube, and Burnout 2 sold as well as it could (Acclaim hardly shipped any titles- my EB still doesn't have any copies, and never will). Second, EA has very good relations with Nintendo. Third, Criterion has the game set up to be easily, quickly, and inexpensively ported to another console, and although you have a point that that doesn't eliminate the work altogether, it gives EA no excuse to ignore the Gamecube considering even Acclaim didn't for the previous 2 titles.

More and more EA games are skipping the Cube, like the incredible looking Fight Night, while pretty much all games it release don't sell very well on our purple cube (I wonder if Nintendo paid EA something to have Madden and Fifa on the Cube, because the versions released for it sell very poorly). Although I still think that was Criterion's decision, I can't really blame EA if it made the call.

[RyanGassxx]

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TalkBack / RE:Burnout 3 Swerves to Miss GameCube

« on: February 12, 2004, 07:41:09 AM »

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Originally posted by: RyanGassxx


Your right, in the past alot of the times the GC version of a multiplat game sold the least... But that was the past... Alot has happened in the recent months... ever since Gamecube hit $99 sales have been absolutly fantastic, and that goes for software sales as well... As of now gamecube is in 2nd place world wide OFFICIALY.... The last 2 high profile multiplat games, Sonic Heros, and SC2 sold the MOST on gamecube... I think now multiplat games will sell more on gamecube than other systems...

SC2 and SH are exceptions, and I think everybody expected them to sell well since most of the Sonic fanbase migrated to the Cube after Sonic Team started churning ports of past Sonics (Which started rumors that Sonic became exclusive to the Gamecube) and Link's presence in SC2 made a lot of Nintendo fanboys who wouldn't normally be interested in fighting games give it a try (Just look at the GameFAQs' board for SC2).

But look at SSX 3, XIII, Prince of Persia, Beyond Good & Evil, Need for Speed Underground, T.H.U.G., Metal Arms and Splinter Cell for examples of great games that deserved better sales but sold zilch on the Cube (Beyond Good & Evil is particulary puzzling, since it's exactly the kind of game that the Zelda crowd wants to play).

It's pretty clear that most of the Cube user base bought it to play Nintendo games, and those who have another console usually end up buying multiplataform games for their other consoles.

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TalkBack / RE:Burnout 3 Swerves to Miss GameCube

« on: February 09, 2004, 12:49:09 PM »

Just because it's easier to port a game that uses RenderWare doesn't mean it doesn't cost resources/manpower, it just means it requires less effort to do so (It's still not cut 'n' paste). Look at Sonic Heroes - It uses RenderWare but the PS2 and X-Box versions are hardly on par to the Cube one.

A simultaneous NGC version, optimized for it, would probably require more programers than Criterion is willing to spare.

And if you see the screenshots released it's clear that the game is already well in development, so even if they decided to start porting it to the Cube it'll probably not launch at the same date as the PS2 and X-Box versions (Or we'll get a rushed port, which is even worse).

Of course a NGC version has been rumoured, but I'm betting on a late release.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:GCN 2 possibly delayed...

« on: February 09, 2004, 12:20:49 PM »

Well, Nintendo's future ad-ons are supposed to "diversify playing styles by improving the gaming experience and connections with hand-held units rather than improve graphics and sound quality", which to me translates to "split the console's user base in limited groups which narrows the market for each game that uses those peripherals even more but pisses all users a whole lot".

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Nintendo Gaming / RE:GCN 2 possibly delayed...

« on: February 09, 2004, 12:04:14 PM »

So in 2006, when all 3rd parties will be focussing on development for the next gen consoles, Nintendo will still keep the Cube as it's home console?

If that's so expect to see pretty much no third party releases in 2006 and 2007.

Sure I bought the Cube primarily to play Nintendo games, but still...

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TalkBack / RE:Sega Toying with DS Development Hardware

« on: February 09, 2004, 11:54:57 AM »

So another developer announced that they'll have games ready for the PSP launch but are still evaluating the DS?

The DS better have a killer showing at E3...

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TalkBack / RE:Burnout 3 Swerves to Miss GameCube

« on: February 09, 2004, 11:50:59 AM »

I read in Cube-Europe that Criterion was the one who decided to develop Burnout 3 only for the PS2 and X-Box, not EA. And that's probably because the game was in dev. only for those two consoles prior to the EA aquisition and they decided to concentrate on them instead of spreading resources on another version.

But let's face it - Every time a multiplataform game hits all 3 consoles at the same time the NGC version sells the worst (Sure, Soul Calibur 2 and possibly Sonic Heroes are exceptions but still you gotta admit that in 99% of the cases the NGC version is outsold by the other two) - So I can't really blame Criterion on that even though that means I won't be able to play the game.