Author Topic: Burden of the Silent Majority  (Read 17192 times)

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Offline Karl Castaneda #2

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Burden of the Silent Majority
« on: September 04, 2014, 04:56:00 AM »

The gaming community has taken a toxic and violent turn in recent months, and Karl’s wondering how the rational, compassionate, but ultimately silent majority should react.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/editorial/38425/burden-of-the-silent-majority

I don’t think anyone on the NWR staff has been talking about the continuing harassment or disenfranchisement of women or the transgender or any other subgroup in the gaming sphere that isn’t white, straight and male. And I don’t think it’s because they don’t care - I think it’s the opposite, rather. See, Nintendo World Report, and Planet GameCube before it, was founded on the basis of highlighting the best in the world of Nintendo and the industry at large. It was always meant to be a beacon of fun and joyful discussion. Even when we have heated arguments, it’s boxed around the the ideal of civility, patience and kindness. The video game industry needs more places like NWR, especially lately, because the last year, and especially the last few months, have been pretty awful.

Before I move further, I’ll say that if you’re not interested in this topic, and if you just want to go back to talking about how rad the new Mario Kart tracks will be (SO RAD), then you should most definitely keep reading. Because it’s you that I want to talk to. You’re the silent majority - the guys and gals who play video games because you like them and don’t care one lick about the latest inside-baseball political Twitter-fight that just lit up this past week. You’re all wonderful and I know there are so, so many of you.

So why does it feel like the gaming community is so damn poisonous lately? Why are people like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn and, most recently, Jenn Frank, concerned about their physical safety after talking about their experiences? You already know the answer - it’s because a vocal minority of misogynists and bigots of all stripes and variations have decided it’s their personal mission in life to drown out the voices of the in-any-way different. That the idea that ladies in video games deserve a fair shake is a tacit condemnation of the current gamer and that the only way to prevent their precious status quo from changing is to tell a “social justice warrior” that you’re going to kill their parents and posting said parents’ address on Twitter.

You already know this is terrible, and inexcusable, and even if these people had a valid point to argue, they gave up any semblance of credibility when they resorted to the most horrendous and violent of tactics. And so you read article after article decrying the gaming community, calling the community a mass of hatred and abuse, and you’re wondering what the hell you did to earn such scorn, anyway.

But see, those articles aren’t talking about you. This whole ongoing debate about how we ought to handle gamers doesn’t have a single thing to do with you. Because you’re the silent majority. You just want to talk about who you’re going to main as in Smash Bros. next month (Toon Link!). And so while all of this back-and-forth is going on, you’ve decided to play the background and simply ignore it. That’s your right, and you’ve decided to rise above it all.

My question is: should you?

That’s not a rhetorical question - I’m honestly asking you. Because I’m constantly asking myself lately what I should do. I think I skew more towards confronting things head on, so when I read about Jenn Frank being forced out of her profession, it makes me unbelievably angry, and it spurs me to speak out against people I see as perpetrators of hatred and bullying. Others have told me that it’s a better tactic to show the gaming industry a better way through my actions, and to be an ambassador of compassion and kindness. I see their point, and I think they have a valid opinion, but it seems too passive for me. If I didn’t speak up and decry the actions of these vicious and callous few, I’d feel sick. It would feel like I’m endorsing them with my silence. That’s just how I feel.

Ultimately, though, I just want gaming to be a safer and more inclusive hobby. I’d like for people to feel safe about sharing their views and opinions without being harassed. I’d like for the big scandal spinning around the blogosphere to be Nintendo’s crazy new business plan again. I’d like to stop seeing people I respect get beaten down into the dirt by lunatics. So I’m asking you - what should we do here, as the gaming majority? How do we foster a better community, and how should we respond to all of this horrible business?

This isn’t a rhetorical question. I’m asking. What do you think?

I am Karl Castaneda's news-posting clone, also known as Karl Castaneda #2. I have an inferiority complex, thanks to my being a clone. Fear me!

Offline Ceric

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 12:11:58 PM »
I know we aren't suppose to post religious stuff in general but there was a really good statement from my building an inclusive church training that would be perfect to go with this article.  Just need to find it.

Though in general unless I'm going to have sex with you or am sizing you up as an opponent in a gender divided competition I honestly don't care what your gender or Race is.  Just a curiosity. Especially in gaming. 
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Offline StrikerObi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 12:22:38 PM »
Here's my tactic.  I think that if you see somebody acting in a way that is counter to equality, they should be publicly shamed. Please read that carefully. I am not saying people should be attacked either verbally or physically. That will only raise their ire, and will result in no progress. I mean they should quite literally be shamed. They should be made to feel humiliated by their outdated beliefs and conscious acts of wrong-doing.


When you see somebody acting improperly, maybe you can be indirect about shaming them. Ask them “How old are you?”. I forget who told me this tactic, but it was in regards to gay rights, as a lot of people who don’t understand and/or support gay rights are old. They might not even realize what they are doing is wrong. They’re simply holding on to “the way things have always been”. Calling somebody out and shaming them by asking how old they are is an instant way to tell them that they aren’t being progressive in their thoughts.

Offline TylerTreese

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 12:25:34 PM »
First off: Thank you so much for writing this Karl.


I pretty much share the same opinion as you. I tried to be silent for a while but I felt sick after seeing people who I've met and people I respect harassed. I saw them called terrible things, belittled as humans, get threats of rape, death and more. The thing that made me uncontrollably angry was when I saw people celebrating the fact that they got Jenn Frank to quit writing about gaming. It makes me sick. I might not always agree with Jenn on every subject but I always respected what she had to say. She is a fantastic writer and gaming as a whole is crappier without her.


Now onto your question. I'm not sure how people are supposed to respond. I get told often that I shouldn't be dismissing #GamerGate. While I agree that games journalism could be better (not that i'm saying its corrupt or anything ridiculous, I just think that everything has potential to improve except for pizza), i'm not going to dignify this angry mob that harasses people with a response. If you are legitimately concerned with gaming then reach out to some writers while still treating them like humans and don't use some stupid hashtag. I'm sure some will respond. The great thing about the games press is how available they are (maybe even too available in light of recent events).


We're experiencing such an interesting time in gaming right now. Kickstarters, Early-Access games, etc. are all forcing writers to take a look at how they should cover the medium. Are the ethics on that stuff a little sketchy? Sure, there is a debate among journalists on whether or not Kickstarters/Patreons/etc. should be covered/funded. So obviously there is a lot to be figured out.


So yeah, I don't have an answer. I'm not that smart of a guy but hopefully some other people here will be able to give some good ones. I do feel like we have to speak up for those that are being treated horribly though. Or at least make it known that good people like us are the majority and the people harassing people are not.


@StrikerObi I am always shocked when I see people who argue against equality. Just unfathomable to me.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 12:48:51 PM »
Karl, Karl, Karl... you know, I sent a Mail about this to Johnny and the RFN crew to avoid this exact sort of click-bait editorial. I really am... super disappointed.


This is something I've wanted to talk about for a while, and I've avoided talking about it on other social media. I've stayed silent not out of indifference, but out if wanting to avoid this carefully laid out landmine field where the word "Misogyny" gets tossed about like the term "Terrorist" did 10 years ago.


There are SO many layers to this rabbit hole that go so deep. Repeatedly, editorials have been cropping up, using the word "Toxic" and "Misogynistic" to describe the opposition to their blatant collusion that they cannot hide because it's smeared all the **** over twitter and other places.


Yes, there's some fucked up voices out there who are being gross. there are also fucked up voices that who would twist a very minor sentiment into something it isn't to push their agenda that then other gaming journalists are obligated to push they want to stay in this very visible video game Illuminati.


To answer your question, Yes, Karl. I should be ignoring this. Otherwise, I'm going to be the one taking the articles for this little non-profit joint that has prospered for 15+ years and dropping them on Pastebin and urging people to boycott Nintendoworldreport.com alongside the other websites and sources of news that have been found to be wrapped up in all this. (NOTE: I am not actually stupid enough to do this, but this is happening with sites like Polygon, Rock Paper Shotgun, Kotaku, Forbes, and other news sites that have been strong-armed by the likes of Zoe Quinn and the people who financially or otherwise support her into putting out articles like this.)


This crap saddens me, on both ends of the spectrum. I'd likely respect these prominent ladies in video gaming's opinions if there weren't others constantly cramming them down my throat. There's actually some episodes of Tropes Vs. Women in video gaming that I think REALLY work and Anita Sarkeesian has really improved those videos by wading through all the **** posts and finding legitimate criticism of her works. Depression Quest is probably pretty great and if I stumble upon it in a humble bundle, I'll give it a shot. What I dislike is the idea that disagreeing with these female role models in this industry gets people blackballed and that we don't have to reclude ourselves any more when we write glowing articles about an indie game and then get exposed as having a relationship with said dev.



If you'll excuse me, I think I'll go back to silence. I do hope this answer satisfies your curiosity, and that this was made PURELY out of your curiosity and not out of friends nudging you to do so.


If people are curious as to what's been going on, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ I believe InternetAristocrat puts it rather nicely.

Offline StrikerObi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 12:58:05 PM »
Shame on you, ClexYoshi.


If people want to take an article like this and misinterpret it on PasteBin, that's their own prerogative. Fear of being blackballed or boycotted-against should not keep people from speaking up about a state of inequality. I don't think anybody working at NWR would be upset if the site got destroyed because it stood up for equal rights.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 01:01:16 PM by StrikerObi »

Offline Triforce Hermit

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 01:16:01 PM »
Quote
See, Nintendo World Report, and Planet GameCube before it, was founded on the basis of highlighting the best in the world of Nintendo and the industry at large. It was always meant to be a beacon of fun and joyful discussion. Even when we have heated arguments, it’s boxed around the the ideal of civility, patience and kindness. The video game industry needs more places like NWR, especially lately, because the last year, and especially the last few months, have been pretty awful.

Then don't post this kind of article. You just contradicted your statement by doing this. This is not going to have any fun or joyful discussion. These rarely, if ever, have peaceful discussions.
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Offline NWR_Karl

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 01:22:49 PM »
Clex, I'll be honest - my initial reaction to your post was to be snarky, but that'd be hypocritical. If I truly want the gaming community to be safer and more inclusive, it's only fair that I respond kindly and considerately to criticism. So I'll do that, because it's something you deserve.

Firstly, the clickbait thing. I think that term gets thrown out a bit, and I don't think it really applies here. So let me establish the relationship I have with NWR and why it is in no way in my best interest to write this editorial, or for NWR to publish it.

I am functionally retired from gaming journalism, if I was ever even relevant enough to be considered active in it. It's been years since I wrote anything for NWR, and aside from my annual production role with the Child's Play Telethon, my affiliation is really just having some friends who still write here. So writing an editorial for clickbait purposes doesn't really do anything for me. NWR doesn't pay its contributors, and I'm not invested enough in the journalism industry to care about clout. Also, I'm a terribly lazy man - anyone who I owed reviews to back when I was a staffer will tell you that. For me to come out of the woodwork now for any reason other than genuine concern would be totally against my nature.

Next, let's talk about collusion. If agreeing generally with someone else's views counts as collusion, then your statement is true. Generally speaking, I agree with Sarkeesian, I think what Zoe Quinn's had to deal with has been really sad (regardless of what she may or may not have done in her personal life, which really isn't anyone's business anyway) and reading today about Jenn Frank being bullied into quitting an industry she put 9 years into is really maddening. Jenn Frank was one of my favorite folks when she wrote for 1Up, and I feel bad that she's gone through something so traumatic. So if that means I'm in collusion with the nebulous group you're referring to, yeah, right on. I totally am. I've contributed absolutely zero dollars to any of these people, though, so if that's what you mean, well, no, you're wrong. But again, depends on how you mean it.

I'm glad you agree that some really bad stuff has occurred and has named it as such. Because that's what I'm calling out here as an issue, and that's what I want to start a dialogue about. If you can agree that really awful things have become all-too-normal in the gaming community (and the examples that have been brought up in the larger discussion, I think, prove that they have), then I think you and I see more eye-to-eye than you're suggesting. Because, as I note at the end of my article, and in this response, I think a more welcoming community allows for all kinds of rational, civil discussion. So if you disagree with Anita Sarkeesian or anybody else, I think that's OK, with the condition that it's done in a rational, civil fashion.

I don't really know what you mean by video game Illuminati, so you'll have to enlighten me. I haven't been to any dimly lit rooms where a smoky, oddly FEMININE hand welcomes in a shadow-cabinet, a CABAL IF YOU WILL, to thwart true justice and discussion. But I work late, so maybe they stopped inviting me.

(That was actually pretty snarky, sorry, but as a weak-willed guy, I love a cabal joke - how often do I get that opportunity?)

You continuing to ignore things is a valid answer, and not one I'm trying to dissuade you about. As I say in the article, I'm honestly asking people to share their opinion, and yours is as important as anyone else's. Apologies if you felt led to answer in a different way.

You can post this onto Pastebin or wherever else if you like - just know that the only people who it'll affect are the people who had nothing to do with writing this editorial. Neal said I could write something, so I posted this. My financial situation won't be affected at all if NWR tanks, but it WILL affect a ton of people who didn't do anything. If you think that's fair, then I can't stop you.

Now, the cramming things down your throat bit. I'd like for you to expand on that, because it's another phrase that I see a lot, and it's one I'm always curious about. Do you feel that coverage like this is somehow limiting other kinds of coverage and topics? Do you feel as if you're being guilted into feeling a certain way, and ostracized for believing what you believe? Because that's not my intention, and at least in terms of NWR (the only outlet where I have the authority to give you an honest answer), this didn't go up in place of a review or another editorial or even a bit of news talking about a cat who can play Rainbow Road on 150cc (you GOTTA see it). This replaced nothing at all. There just would be one less article on this website.

As for your last comment, it was made purely out of concern (though I guess curiosity plays into it somehow, as well). Nobody forced or even asked me to write this. This certainly wasn't commissioned by a video game Illuminati. Unless they have me so hypnotized with their boob-rays that not even I know what's going on anymore. I suppose you'll have to take that into consideration, as well.
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Offline StrikerObi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 01:27:02 PM »
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See, Nintendo World Report, and Planet GameCube before it, was founded on the basis of highlighting the best in the world of Nintendo and the industry at large. It was always meant to be a beacon of fun and joyful discussion. Even when we have heated arguments, it’s boxed around the the ideal of civility, patience and kindness. The video game industry needs more places like NWR, especially lately, because the last year, and especially the last few months, have been pretty awful.

Then don't post this kind of article. You just contradicted your statement by doing this. This is not going to have any fun or joyful discussion. These rarely, if ever, have peaceful discussions.

Quit trying to poke holes in the argument. That's not what this is about, and by doing so you are not contributing to a peaceful discussion. Karl uses that founding basis as a jumping off point to describe why we must step up and speak out about these types of situations, even if they are uncomfortable and no fun.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 01:27:08 PM »
Shame on you, ClexYoshi.


If people want to take an article like this and misinterpret it on PasteBin, that's their own prerogative. Fear of being blackballed or boycotted-against should not keep people from speaking up about a state of inequality. I don't think anybody working at NWR would be upset if the site got destroyed because it stood up for equal rights.

My apologies for how I worded that. Didn't mean for it to have such a mafia shakedown-esque tone.

The point I was trying to get across is that an awful lot of this sort of editorial has cropped up, and not for the noble purpose of gaming inequality. Not entirely at least.

I'm saying that Gender Equality is being used as a smokescreen to avoid one journalist having to call out another on the question of ethical reporting.

Also, at one point in my post, I typoed the word "recuse". Can't edit that 'cuz of the talkback thing.

I still respect that this even has a talkback thread, as most of these editorials that have cropped up disable the comments.

Also, I just noticed Karl typed a reply. I'm looking forward to this and will address it's talking points in a separate post.

Offline StrikerObi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 01:45:26 PM »
My apologies for how I worded that. Didn't mean for it to have such a mafia shakedown-esque tone.

The point I was trying to get across is that an awful lot of this sort of editorial has cropped up, and not for the noble purpose of gaming inequality. Not entirely at least.

I'm saying that Gender Equality is being used as a smokescreen to avoid one journalist having to call out another on the question of ethical reporting.

Also, at one point in my post, I typoed the word "recuse". Can't edit that 'cuz of the talkback thing.

I still respect that this even has a talkback thread, as most of these editorials that have cropped up disable the comments.

Also, I just noticed Karl typed a reply. I'm looking forward to this and will address it's talking points in a separate post.

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you weren't really threatening anybody.

I don't disagree at all that a lot of these editorials have cropped up specifically to generate clicks. It's sad that the Internet is beholden to the almighty click. I really wish it wasn't. But I think we should take our progressiveness however we can get it. I think we can all agree that this isn't click-bait. But even if it were click-bait, if this article (or any other) gets somebody to change their view on how they treat others, that's a victory in my book.

I also don't entirely disagree about the ethical reporting thing. It's in a highly gray area, given the relationships between parties involved. But shifting the discussion to ethical reporting is itself a smokescreen. If those personal relationships did not exist, the assholes making death threats would have just found another way to rationalize their hate. It's ingrained in their base level psychology. For some reason they feel threatened by Zoe Quinn and will use whatever they can dig up for character assassination purposes, and also to create a false sense of superiority over her. This is a very common tactic among sexists/racists/homophobes/etc.

Offline KisakiProject

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2014, 01:46:57 PM »
I just wanna post 2 article I sent to Karl on Twitter.

First.  I think most people want games to be inclusive.  Their problem, certainly mine, is more so the tone people argue for it with.  I think this read http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/21/where-online-social-liberalism-lost-the-script/ in many ways illustrates how I feel.

Secondly.  There is way too much false dichotomy being presented here.  There are more points of view than "SJW" and internet troll threatening people. I agree with some of the points made in the tropes V women articles and disagree with others?  What does that make me?  I ultimately think the solution isn't twitter lynch mobs or boycotts.  I think people should make what they want to and purchase what they want too.  I think if a tenth the effort was spent making more "inclusive" games then complaining about other peoples games the problem could be more effective resolved.  Where would I fit into this false dichotomy?  I'm all for being tolerant but I'm also for absolute free speech and expression.  Including things others find offensive.  But I also would never myself say half that stuff.  Anyways I think this blog post better expresses this than I can.  http://blueplz.blogspot.com/2014/08/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players.html

I think the best solution to all this is two fold.  First, lead by example.  IE be respectful too people who disagree with your POV and try to understand why they feel the way do about any topic.  Then in a non-emotional way try to logically refute their points.  Do not use ad hominem.  Like "you're just a SJW"  "you're just a misogynist."  Second, nobody likes to hear this but you just gotta ignore the trolls.  There always have been trolls and always will be.  Stop feeding them. 

I also think after stuff like "gertsmanngate" and "Doritosgate" put game enthusiasts are one edge.  I don't think it unreasonable for people to be frustrated.  I also think its not unreasonable to excuse yourself from writing on a topic where you are personally involved.  Remember on Weekend Confirmed when Garnett Lee stopped having his GF on because he couldn't be objective about her games?  I think that was a reasonable solution.

Offline NWR_Karl

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2014, 01:56:09 PM »
Kisaki, I think you'd fit firmly in the camp of people who I outline at the beginning of my article - the fair and compassionate people who are interested in healthy discussion in a civilized format. I think the way you approach the topic and the way you've worded your post proves that.

The fact that I leave the issue open-ended and inviting comments is specifically because I don't think there's a one-or-the-other approach. I outlined a couple in my article because those are the two approaches I've seen most in my conversations with friends and others on Twitter, but the fact that I'm asking the audience for different ways to approach what I see as a major issue is meant to show that I'm interested in seeing other opinions or approaches from (once again) compassionate and rational people.

Leading by example is specifically one of the approaches I mentioned, and it's completely valid. It's not totally in line with how I feel, but engaging the way you do, I'm interested in talking about it more and learning from your perspective. I'm all about broadening perspectives.

As for your last comment about being more honest and open about conflicts of interest, yeah, I totally agree. I think Kotaku is fumbling for a way to re-establish their credibility after a really embarrassing month, and that they're probably now over-compensating. But again, I think you're being totally reasonable, and I agree that the more transparency we have into journalists and their affiliations with what they're covering, the better.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2014, 02:01:22 PM »
I'm glad you were honest here and able to at least able to stow your snark. I realize that I came off as a bit harsh at first, and now it's time for me to explain my suspicion.


This recent harshness that has flared in the community is in response to a youtube takedown of a guy talking over a publicly available image of Depression Quest, talking about Zoe Quinn's Ex talking about his recent break-up and at least 5 different people she had supposedly shown equal infidelity to. In particular, Nathan Greyson who writes for Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun was named as one of these 5 dudes she was cheating on.

Nathan Greyson wrote a pretty glowing preview of depression quest in march and has marketed her game without any sort of disclosure, and talk of it all over the internet was being silenced. nobody would report this if they were associated with any sort of greater media outlet. It took several days before anybody finally adressed it on Kotaku,a nd they handwaved it saying the article was written at the end of march and Zoe Quinn and Nathan Greyson were not having any sort of affair until early April.

http://puu.sh/blFBh/5f76500cba.jpg

http://puu.sh/blFIC/e1c57902df.jpg

More and more accounts such as these tarted popping up. Indie game devs and journalists came to the save via twitter and were discovered to either be supporting Zoe's Rebel Game Jam financially, http://www.rebelgamejam.com/ or have some other close tie with her that calls for recusion. The Quinnspiracy theory video I linked in my initial post does an infinitely better job going over these events, the meaning behind the #GamerGate hash tag and will likely be covering the #NotMyShield hash tag that female gamers and developers have been using as of late.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

Because censorship didn't work thanks to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect Streisand Effect, the thing that Gawker Media and the other media outlets that have ties to this mess have been doing is posting lots of editorials, calling Gamers Toxic, Misogynistic man-children who don't know what in the hell they are talking about and that the public shouldn't give us any credit because we're not the ones with Masters degrees in journalism and we obviously want women to go to the kitchen and make 'dat sammich! (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT TAKE THAT QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT! XD)


I'm sorry that I had to take the defensive and assume that you were wrapped up in this stupid web of lies and deciet, Karl. I trust you because you have been out of the game for quite some time. It's still good to hear from you every now and then, and I didn't mean to immediatley going to discrediting your article and assuming the worst. I have made an ass of myself and I reiterate, I am sorry.


I'm also unfamiliar with Jenn Frank, I'm afraid. There actually are people out there who will always bring out the worst in a community, and in my current uneducated bliss, I'm inclined to believe she got doxxed or something awful happened as she got caught in the crossfire between gamers and the press. That is the real shame here is that people who are innocent are going to get caught in the flame.

Offline Triforce Hermit

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2014, 02:10:27 PM »
Quote
See, Nintendo World Report, and Planet GameCube before it, was founded on the basis of highlighting the best in the world of Nintendo and the industry at large. It was always meant to be a beacon of fun and joyful discussion. Even when we have heated arguments, it’s boxed around the the ideal of civility, patience and kindness. The video game industry needs more places like NWR, especially lately, because the last year, and especially the last few months, have been pretty awful.

Then don't post this kind of article. You just contradicted your statement by doing this. This is not going to have any fun or joyful discussion. These rarely, if ever, have peaceful discussions.

Quit trying to poke holes in the argument. That's not what this is about, and by doing so you are not contributing to a peaceful discussion. Karl uses that founding basisas a jumping off point to describe why we must step up and speak out about these types of situations, even if they are uncomfortable and no fun.
Your argument is that we should shame people who don't like the way you think and that you need to make them accept your beliefs because that is the "right way to think". I'm sorry, but what part of your original post fostered anymore peaceful discussion then mine? So don't go lecturing me about it.

Most gamers play games to avoid the stupidity of reality. So most are not going to want to argue this unless is affects them directly. The biggest concern of the gaming community right now is Destiny. And nothing is going to stop that train. So yeah, this editorial could have been written at a better time if results were intended. Not saying this is clickbait, but that it was just bad timing.

...I think people should make what they want to and purchase what they want too.  I think if a tenth the effort was spent making more "inclusive" games then complaining about other peoples games the problem could be more effective resolved.  Where would I fit into this false dichotomy?  I'm all for being tolerant but I'm also for absolute free speech and expression.  Including things others find offensive.  But I also would never myself say half that stuff.

...Second, nobody likes to hear this but you just gotta ignore the trolls.  There always have been trolls and always will be.  Stop feeding them. 

Perfectly worded. I agree 100%
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Offline KisakiProject

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2014, 02:11:52 PM »
I mean.  Don't toot my horn too much.  I've certainly been overly reactionary at times and done my fair share of trolling.  Especially when we I was younger.  I think people have forgotten you learn most from people you disagree the most with.  Even those who offend.  But I stand by my don't feed the trolls comment.  I also think part of the problem is this.  Gaming was very much an exclusively male thing when we were younger.  And you say things to your guy friends that you would never say to girls (speaking in generalities).  But when games went online people kind of forgot that.  Just troll your friends if you know they are fine with it and do it back.  But when competing with strangers don't until you know they are comfortable with it.  Like, I play WiiU with my gf and I would never say the stuff to her I say to my high school buddies when we play halo or something.  Just use common sense.  Treat each personal individually.  Use language appropriate to who they are as a person.

Also I think you guys run one of the best websites.  I also met a bunch of you at PAX 2012 briefly.  You're all very nice.  I don't think this article was clickbait or that you don't genuinely care.

Offline Soren

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2014, 02:19:06 PM »
Funny thing about that "glowing preview" Nathan Grayson wrote about Depression Quest. People said at first that it was a review and for the life of me no internet sleuth has found it.


Probably because that "glowing preview" never existed.


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Offline Soren

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2014, 02:32:37 PM »
Most gamers play games to avoid the stupidity of reality. So most are not going to want to argue this unless is affects them directly. The biggest concern of the gaming community right now is Destiny. And nothing is going to stop that train. So yeah, this editorial could have been written at a better time if results were intended. Not saying this is clickbait, but that it was just bad timing.

Pray tell, what is a good time to discuss this then? Heaven forbid the PR-driven Destiny hype trains gets derailed!

Inclusivity should be an issue that affects all gamers directly. Cultural and academic criticism of games should be something that is welcome and debated properly. People use film and music and other forms of entertainment to escape the "stupidity of reality" but they have thriving critical and academic fields of study. If games are art then they deserve the same treatment films got when took queer cinema classes in college. And feminist theory...dear god!
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Offline syn4aptik

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »
Peeling myself away from work to post on a non-work-based forum for the first time in months, just because this topic is so important...


I just want to say that people should speak up to whatever degree they are comfortable. Become a good advocate is a long processes, and even I slip up from time to time and I am well on the "progressive" side of social justice discussions.


Shaming has its place, but I don't think your goal should ever be to make people feel bad about themselves. Most racists, misogynists, etc don't make a conscious decision to be bad people. Their points of view follow naturally from a complex societal mileau that, in effect, normalizes their beliefs. To insult them won't actually help them to learn. The best way, honestly, is to find opportunities to have them defend their opinions openly, and generate discussion that openly forces them to confront their lack of concern and empathy. If a sexist says, you know what, **** it. I don't have concern or empathy for women and I don't care to try, well...shame away.


Now there is this whole other issue of privilege and how it shapes someone's outlook. A lot of people don't really have a firm grasp of what privilege means and like to dismiss discussions of privilege off hand. But it's basically like this: if you are pissed off because your ability to enjoy something without considering its pernicious aspects is threatened by the words and discussions of victims and victim advocates, and you can share that you are pissed off and annoyed without any real threat of repercussion, that's privilege. You don't have a right to be shielded from uncomfortable topics. Stop being a baby when you are.


That's all I have to say for now, but I am loving this discussion, as uncomfortable as it may be for some.
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Offline Triforce Hermit

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 02:43:12 PM »
Most gamers play games to avoid the stupidity of reality. So most are not going to want to argue this unless is affects them directly. The biggest concern of the gaming community right now is Destiny. And nothing is going to stop that train. So yeah, this editorial could have been written at a better time if results were intended. Not saying this is clickbait, but that it was just bad timing.

Pray tell, what is a good time to discuss this then? Heaven forbid the PR-driven Destiny hype trains gets derailed!

Inclusivity should be an issue that affects all gamers directly. Cultural and academic criticism of games should be something that is welcome and debated properly. People use film and music and other forms of entertainment to escape the "stupidity of reality" but they have thriving critical and academic fields of study. If games are art then they deserve the same treatment films got when took queer cinema classes in college. And feminist theory...dear god!
I don't give a living **** about Destiny if that is what you are implying. A better time would be when almost the entire gaming world doesn't have their head so far up Activision's ass that they don't care about anything else.

Movies are nearly a century old, music has been around since the beginning of time, games have been around for 30 years. See a difference there?
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2014, 02:50:22 PM »
I can see this thread will end well.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 02:57:01 PM »
Funny thing about that "glowing preview" Nathan Grayson wrote about Depression Quest. People said at first that it was a review and for the life of me no internet sleuth has found it.


Probably because that "glowing preview" never existed.

There is a bit of telephone going on with my recounting of these events, which is why I urge folks to watch internetaristocrat's videos, and maybe do their own research when they aren't a bit sleep addled during the day.

I think moreso than Greyson's report on Indie Game Jam, he prominently links http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/#more-183169 Depression Quest and uses a screenshot of Depression Quest to headline above 49 other games. I would say that that's some favoritism and excitement shown towards a game that is about as visually stunning as Zork, and I certainly would not choose to get the attention of people to read my report unless I had some personal investment in said game to want it to be the image associated with the article. These are also written eerily close to each other in January.

Thank you for calling me out, Soren. I had a bit of a misunderstanding there and didn't exactly fact check the exact detail there and blew it out of proportion just a tad.

Offline Soren

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2014, 03:07:40 PM »
Movies are nearly a century old, music has been around since the beginning of time, games have been around for 30 years. See a difference there?

Video games are at least 50 years old and perfectly ripe for criticism. At that age there was already plenty of film criticism and theory firmly established.

I think moreso than Greyson's report on Indie Game Jam, he prominently links http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/#more-183169 Depression Quest and uses a screenshot of Depression Quest to headline above 49 other games. I would say that that's some favoritism and excitement shown towards a game that is about as visually stunning as Zork, and I certainly would not choose to get the attention of people to read my report unless I had some personal investment in said game to want it to be the image associated with the article. These are also written eerily close to each other in January.

That is far from a "glowing preview". It was also written in January, not March, and was on RPS and not Kotaku. Any movement that wants to stamp out "corruption" and bad ethics in journalism can't fall prey to simple fact-checking. That is, unless those facts don't fit your agenda. (I'm not attributing this to you ClexYoshi, it appears your intentions are good overall.)

The overall problem with something like #GamerGate is that they may have the best intentions in the world, but they are easy prey to be hijacked by people with other intentions. And that's what happened with Jenn Frank yesterday.
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2014, 03:12:09 PM »
Well, a few things.

First, I'm not sure just how many people know of or are aware of these situations. It's not like this is something making major news on CNN or regular news media. At least, none that I've seen. I only learned about some of the Zoe Quinn thing just last week actually because of a headline that caught my attention on another site. I don't even know who the Jenn Frank is in your article or what that case is about. I consider myself a gamer but I'm not as avid as I use to be and I'm particular about it. I just stick with Nintendo products and games. I don't follow other gaming areas whether it be Sony, Microsoft, PC or anything that really doesn't relate much with the interest of Nintendo. It's like if I go to IGN, I'll check out the Wii U, 3DS, Movies and TV pages and that's it. I don't check out the other areas since they don't matter to me. Likewise, I'm sure there are thousands who perhaps just play games on their smartphones or tablets who likewise have no idea about some of these controversies. Thus, a big part of the silent majority may also be the fact that it is unacquainted with these events.

Second, this isn't only a gamer issue. There have been many other cases of internet bullying and threats to harm people. There was the case of some lady whose halloween costume was a Boston Marathon victim. Same kind of thing with people posting personal information about her, threatening loved ones and viciously attacking her. Although I don't think anyone called it misogyny there because it was just a bad decision. Now, the retaliation and response of people was also wrong. Yet, has anyone ever tried to track down and punish those who cross the line in this and other cases? It very rarely happens unless there is an actual death or serious crime committed. It's sad but true. Thus, the cycle perpetuates. Until punishment is brought on to those ones who feel they are entitled to met out their own kind of justice, it is going to keep happening because there are no repercussions. You can talk about it and hope people wise up but as the saying goes, talk is cheap.

Third, news media needs money in any form to stay alive. Thus, reporters and writers are often looking for some kind of controversy to report on to get an emotional response from the public so that they will pay or use the media's services. A couple years ago, there was a front page story in the local newspaper in my area of a teacher that was fired or suspended because he gave some students a zero for their mark on some of their work and the school had a "no zero" policy meaning that teachers were not to mark anything with a zero but use other things like n/c (not complete) and other such ideas. I don't know if the paper realized it would make such a big impact but it became the biggest story for a week and a half with all kinds of editorials of people outraged about it and how wrong it was that a teacher was punished for doing what was right, or how lazy kids are being allowed to succeed, etc. My personal feeling on was that he had done it before and had been talked to by the school board about it but he chose not to follow the direction given him and to be insubordinate and do things his way so he made his choice and knew what he was doing and was punished for it. It's like telling an employee that if they keep showing up late for work they'll be fired and the employee says whatever, I'll come in to work on my terms and keeps coming in late and gets fired. But because the teacher ran to the news first and made it seem like he was punished for being the only person willing to do what was right in education, people were outraged at the school board. Up to that point, no one had ever given a rip about the no zero policy but suddenly it was the most important cause in people's lives.

What is more serious? The civil war in Syria? Russia's manipulation of Ukraine? The Ebola outbreak in Africa? Those are things that are affecting millions. Yet, a teacher getting suspended or a person being cyber-bullied is what people are making a big cause and debate out of. Why? Because it is simplier to get people to care about an individual than faceless millions or to highlight a simple case of injustice to get people hot under the collar and they can render an instant verdict on the matter than a situation with many facets and complications so that there is no quick right and wrong answer. I'm not saying cyber-bullying is tolerable or that we should dismiss the victims of it or let the perpetrators get away but I also think that stories like it can be blown way out of proportion as to their importance. Honestly, one of the best things made about the media's influence in reporting has to be the 1951 movie Ace in the Hole also called The Big Carnival. It's a dour look at the relationship between the press, the news it reports and the manner in which it reports it.

Finally, what exactly is the call to action? We should speak up about it? We could. I'm sure people here would all agree that this conduct is wrong. Great. Then what? Talking about it here really does nothing about the situation from what I can see except stir up contraversy where there was none. So, are we supposed to all then go off to other sites and talk about it there and get into comment section debates about it? The problem with people's behaviour is psychological. Not in that they are crazy but that as, one theory goes, a man with conviction is a hard man to change. One of the biggest examples of that is how people in Nazi Germany commited genocide because they were convinced that what they were doing was right. Even when confronted with their actions or evidence that what they are doing is wrong, people will find a way to still justify it or ignore it as they don't want to change. How do you fight that?

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2014, 03:19:08 PM »
I LIKE VIDEO GAMES!

No no, I don't necessarily agree with everyone mentioned or with their methods but the amount of hate they get is absolutely absurd.
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