I'm still shocked this game was so unloved by so many people. I thought it was a bold change to a series that had just gone through a trilogy of very similar (though completely awesome) games. I found it exhilarating, fun, new. The 3rd-person/1st-person gameplay was strangely intuitive, and something no other system could do the same way. Looking forward to people's refreshed opinions on this one, after the dust of (un)popular opinion has settled.

Kudos, Neal.

I've played every flagship Metroid game, I've read the manga, I know Samus and I know Metroid...  Other M is my favorite.  In terms of that franchise? Nothing would make me happier than a second game done in the same style.  Maybe get some more input from NA writers so the specific dialogue isn't so hard to swallow for Westerners.

But, in reality, Metroid Prime 4 confirmed ... yay.

Disclaimer: I looooove the Prime games.  But, anyone who knows me is aware I value narrative above all else.  In that regard, nothing compares to the depth of Other M.  Dialogue quality? Spotty dialogue still beats no dialogue in my book.

@LittleIrves

As I always bring up regarding this game... don't worry, Metroid fans loved Other M: link

Here's the easiest way for me to illuminate how much I liked Other M compared to Metroid Prime games.

Metroid Prime - Got near the end when I first played it and stopped. Only went back to beat it before MP2.
Metroid Prime 2 - Only played about 5 hours.
Metroid Prime 3 - Got near the end when I first played and stopped. Still have never beaten it.
Metroid: Other M - Beat it the first time I played in the span of a week.

That doesn't mean I think Other M is vastly better than the Prime games. It's just for me, I wanted to beat that game. I never had that rush in any of the Prime games.

I LOVED metroid other M.  I loved everything except for the out-of-place pixel hunts and some of the cutscenes.  I was stuck on one for what seemed like forever (maybe 5-10 minutes, but staring at the same screen for 10 minutes is pretty much forever).  I also wish samus didnt narrate WHAT JUST HAPPENED.  I saw it, Samus, I dont need you to tell me what I just saw. 

The gameplay, however, was solid.  I loved the return of the speed boost.  The exploration definitely felt like a callback to super metroid (albeit with less shortcuts).  Still don't know why people hated it THAT much.  I guess I just prefer gameplay over story any day, and the cheesy campy story didnt bother me.  It's a nintendo game.  I don't expect monumental story-telling.

I have not beaten this game. I really should right this wrong.

I know I was frustrated with a few things with this game while I was playing it. One, the method in which you recharge energy and missiles is one of the most counter intuitive game play elements I've ever come across. Nothing is worse than "focusing" during a big fight when your energy is low. It usually resulted in my death. Two, the controls are a bit jank. They do a better job than most games that use a d-pad in a 3D world, but there are still issues of not shooting where you want. And the whole pointing at the screen to use missiles was also a pain. I felt like I was fighting the game mechanics just as much as I was fighting the enemies in the game. I never got used to it.

As for the story? Terrible. Some of the worst writing I've seen in any medium. The cutscenes are ignored easily enough, but still. The way the story is presented in (at least the original) Metroid Prime via Pirate Logs and Chozo lore is way more organic and true to Metroid than Samus' audio diary that is given to us in Other M.

That classic Metroid momentum that Neal is referring to never took hold of me with Other M. But I should give it another chance.

In my experience I wanted to beat it the first time I played it, but several hours into it I got stuck with a door which wouldn't open and no way to progress. I waited about a month in vain hoping Nintendo would release a patch, but it became obvious this was never going to happen, so reluctantly I deleted the save and started all over and then beat the game.

Despite your flame baiting I am a Metroid fan, but I don't love Other M. It may be Metroid in name, but its not Metroid. Metroid fans loved Other M you say? Well, sales figures tell a different story. Initial sales were good, but once word of mouth spread the game had no legs whatsoever.

You can say what you want about me, but I pre-ordered the game and paid full price for it. That should be enough proof that I am a Metroid fan, but knowing what I know now I would have just waited and got it out of the bargain bin where it eventually ended up (and for good reason).

Never played beyond an hour for any Metroid game.  Would this be a bad starting point?

I hate Other M for three reasons:

1. There is no way to replenish health between save points which is incredibly user unfriendly and just plain frustrating.  Combine this with the shitty first person view that leaves you as a sitting duck for enemies and that HAS to be used to kill certain enemies and the game basically fucks you constantly.  Stupid design.

2. The story is like bad Metroid fan fiction written by a 13 year old.  Not only is the story bad but the dialog is incredibly immature as well.  I am shocked a full grown adult wrote this script.

3. The game strips away the very thing that makes me like Metroid in the first place: nonlinear gameplay.  The game has no exploration.  It's just a linear action game with a Metroid skin.

Item three is the truly offensive part of it to me.  If I can't explore the world at my leisure for power-ups that enable me to explore more of the game then I'm NOT PLAYING A METROID GAME.  To me no Metroid fan would like this game because it is Metroid in name only.  Going in a straight line until the game tells you you can use some new ability is not Metroid at all.

If the series continues in this direction it is DEAD like Star Fox.  I have no interest in playing anything resembling Other M.

I don't think I could disagree with this more. To me, story in gaming is something that is usually fairly unnecessary, and I'd much rather have none at all than to have it handled poorly, especially in something like Metroid. I thought Retro did a magnificent job of offering a deep narrative while still staying true to the spirit of isolation and openness that are integral to the franchise.

While I won't defend Other M's dialogue, I'll bitch a bit about the Metroid Prime narrative delivery. If I want to read all that shit, I'll buy a book. In Metroid Prime, I was obsessive about reading new lores and stuff, but then it got to a point where I felt like I was reading more than playing. From what I hear, Mass Effect has a similar issue. I don't think Prime's narrative is bad. It's decently compelling, but it's something that most people will completely ignore.

Though I guess that's why it works. You can just ignore what you don't care about. In Other M, it's always there.

I completely understand why people hate on Other M's dialogue. To me, it's some of the best comedy Nintendo has ever delivered.

I thought Retro did the best job of offering a narrative for a videogame EVER.  The big problem with videogame stories is that you usually watch them.  But videogames are supposed to be interactive.  Too many story-focused games just halt the game part of it to show you the story.  In Metroid Prime you experience the story.  You scan the lores and enemies and piece the story together yourself.  Anything that happens is either something you do yourself (ie: fighting a boss, solving a puzzle) or it happened at some other time and you observe the remains after the fact.  It's like being an archaelogist discovering a historical site.  That is much more interactive than playing the game and then everything stops, and you watch a movie, and then continue.

When I was a kid and story was very minimal, kids always described the cool parts of the game from their perspective.  It wasn't "Mario did this or that" it was "*I* defeated Bowser.  *I* made this impossible jump.  The boss did this and *I* had to dodge it."  When I think of a very cutscene oriented game like MGS it's gets described as "Snake jumps off this missile.  Snake says 'Metal Gear?!'"  Nobody ever says "I did this" when describing a cutscene.  It's like in a typical videogame I'm me until a cutscene starts and it switches to someone else and then I take over again.

So you can put that in the "why Other M sucks" lists.  Metroid Prime introduced a bold new way for videogames to tell stories and Other M went back to some cliche method from 1997.

That was basically my point; there's a ton of story there if you want it, but if you'd rather just play through it like an old Metroid game and just catch the essential story bits you can do that too. It works great in the context of the series. It would be nice to include voice acting for the text so people don't have to just read it all, though.

The Prime games had a lot of text.  They didn't really have a lot of story.  Not all that much was ever communicated through the medium.  There was a problem, Samus fixed it.  I enjoyed the narrative of how Samus fixed it and what happened to the (often nameless) supporting cast.  But still, end of the day, nothing really moved thematically.

Disclaimer: I'll say again, I loooooove the Prime games.  Other M might be my #1 but MP1-3 are likely the next three games on that list.

We can all agree the dialogue in Other M was bad.  I don't think ANYONE has ever said otherwise.  But, I would still much rather accept this awkward step in the right direction than none at all.

Isn't that what people are always complaining about in 1st party games? That they are too afraid of taking risks and trying new things?  Guess what happens when companies do that stuff? The results aren't 100% perfect!  I believe Other M has far more to offer than some bad (horrible, cringe-worthy) dialogue can negate.


@TrueNerd

Just because there wasn't voice acting in earlier games doesn't mean that is truer to the franchise.  Metroid just has the burden(?) of having been around so long that it can garner such comparisons.  Metal Gear Solid and God of War do not have to deal with that.

Just as 3D Metroid was originally viewed as "not true Metroid" when Prime came out...

@Insano

But you say yourself that you don't usually care for story in games at all.  That sort of invalidates your assessment since you just need a working START button to skip stuff and all execution becomes irrelevant on your end.

@Chozo

Those are Metroid fans.  On average, they love Other M.  There's no flame to need baiting.

Yes, this is one of the reasons I actually liked Other M's story.  The dialogue gave it a nice cheesy B movie feel that when combined with the whole science experiment gone wrong plot made it like Resident Evil in space.

I hate when people suggest this for any game.  If I don't pay attention during cutscenes how the fuck do I know what to do next?  A lot of games reveal important info in cutscenes like where to go and what to look for and stuff like that.

As for those who enjoy the comedy, I like the Metroid series.  I don't want it to be some "so bad, it's good" parody of itself.  The key thing for something like MST3K is that you make fun of a movie you DON'T like.  I found the Star Wars prequels to be unintentionally hilarious but since I actually liked the original trilogy, that was annoying.  I really like the Metroid series so I want anything related to it to be good.  Super Metroid wouldn't be a classic if it was unintentionally hilarious.

I've already said my piece on multiple occasions about how I feel the story and dialogue in Other M are a betrayal of the Samus character (along with just being god-awful in general both in content and presentation), and I'm really not in the mood to go into it again.

This game is something of a guilty pleasure for me, as I enjoyed the game despite the objective part of me seeing just how terrible so many aspects of the game are.  The 1st person mode feels like it's as bad as it is simply because Sakamoto didn't want to acknowledge that Westerners got it right already with the Prime games, so it was done deliberately differently.  It is pretty inexcusable that you have to use the Wiimote's finger-cramping D-pad to play this game, considering the existence of the Nunchuk and its analog stick.  Your inability to backtrack until pretty much post-game play is very regrettable and does take away from the sense of exploration that drives the franchise.  I also never found that the concept of the holographic environment was ever done to its potential.  The soundtrack is also surprisingly absent for the vast majority of the game, which is a real downer considering the series' musical legacy.  And the less said about the voice acting, the better.

All that said, the game is a bold experiment and I'm glad Nintendo tried it.  When the game works and you're just in the flow of movement and combat, it can be quite a rush.  The visuals and animations are certainly lovely, easily up there among the best-looking Wii games.  Maybe next time they'll put the game in the hands of a designer that's actually competent (aka "not Sakamoto"), and the experiment will pan out better with mechanics that better mesh with each other and a story that doesn't play out like a pre-Teen Twilight fangirl's fanfiction.

That is, in fact, not what I said myself. I said I usually find it unnecessary; that doesn't mean I don't like it when it's done well, just that I have a pretty low tolerance for it being done badly. I enjoy a good story in a game under the right circumstances. Also, not all games give you the ability to skip story elements, and some stick important things in them that you miss if you skip or ignore them.

Its funny how you are dictated to exactly what you are seeing, because it seems like in every respect the game orders you around and takes all the freedom and imagination away from you. You are TOLD when you are allowed to use your powerups, and you have very linear gameplay which shoehorns you into going a certain way and that's pretty much it. So  I think its very much fitting that you also have narratives which TELL you what is happening and what you are seeing.

It was bad enough seeing Samus scream like a wuss and break down and cry during the cutscenes and I wanted to pretend that didn't happen, but the narratives go on and on about her emotions and feelings and as much as you want to believe Samus is a real bounty hunter and is tough enough to do that job, the game doesn't let you. If it just happened once maybe it wouldn't be a big deal, but the game constantly drives home the fact that Samus is very emotionally fragile and has no right even being a bounty hunter, even though in every other Metroid game she seemed tough enough.

We all know Samus is a woman, but why the hell does she have to be made into a sexist stereotype of women? Why can't she be both a woman and tough at the same time? The way she is portrayed in the game is an insult both to females and to the way Samus used to be in the earlier games. People talk about how there needs to be more female protagonists, and I agree, but we need heroines we can respect, and not ones which break down and cry when they chip a nail. Samus was one of the few female video game heroes that people could respect, but Other M took everything we loved about Samus and then wadded it up in a ball and threw it in the trash. One single game assassinated her character.

Other M is a very Orwellian game where you as a player have no freedom to think or do anything except what the game allows you to do, there's even a game killing glitch which will literally wreck the game for you if you try to play Metroid in the traditional way and do unauthorized exploration and back tracking. I'm sure Sakamoto didn't put that glitch in the game intentionally, but its funny how its there because its the epitome of how the game acts like Hitler and gives you no freedom to do or think on your own.

As with many Nintendo games this generation, Other M was a very enjoyable game with some heavy caveats. The decision by Sakamoto to force a control scheme onto a sole Wii remote without giving an alternate control scheme was absolutely bonkers. I can understand having this more basic input for beginners or for people who simply perfer it. However, This control scheme has two significant downsides for me. Firstly it forced you to control a character in 3D space with the D pad, which does not allow for increments of movement. Secondly, because the game has a first person mode which utilises the pointer, it forces the player to change their grip on the controller any time they want to fire missiles or search areas. Had a control option been available which utilised the nunchuck then not only would this allowed for more refined movement with the analogue stick, it would also have meant that the remote could be held in the pointer position rather than sideways like an NES controller.

It's kind of weird, but one of the reasons I always appreciated Nintendo as a developer was because their control schemes were always so honed and refined. Between Metroid: Other M, Donkey Kong Country Returns (shake to roll? What the hell is wrong with the classic controller?) and Kid Icarus: Uprising, Nintendo has made some serious mistakes in recent years.

Admittedly, during this time they've also given us the Galaxy games, Sin & Punishment 2 and Wii Sports: Resort, all of which had great controls. It's just a shame that they appear to have gone bonkers on a few occasions. It's also worth pointing out that of those games given as examples of not so good control schemes, my issue is not so much that these inputs are inherently 'bad' (although I would certainly say Uprising's are bad), but rather that there were better options which were not offered as alternative controls, be they the Classic Controller, Nunchuck, or Circle Pad Pro.

@ChozoGhost

Yea... Samus sure isn't tough or brave in Other M.

Who blew up all those aliens when Samus was crying her way back home?

Adam and Higgs.

Adam literally gave his life like a true hero, and I recall Higgs actually saved Samus (AKA: Princess) on at least two occasions. This is a sharp contrast from every other Metroid game where Samus saves the day by herself. I'm not saying Samus didn't do a lot in Other M or that the mission would have succeeded without her, but if it wasn't for Higgs she would have been dead and that's a fact.

@Chozo

So Samus annihilates countless baddies and bosses in her most bad-ass, spinny, flippy fashion yet, but it's all invalidated, and incidentally, sexist, because of a few cutscenes?

I just find the whole argument so mountain-out-of-molehill.  Meanwhile actual mountains of kick-ass bounty hunting are standing right in front of you - completely glazed over!

... makes no sense.

Other M tried something new and tried to make her a more complex character with feminine and masculine traits, which I appreciated even if it was poorly handled in places. Gaming heroes tend to be hyper masculinized (for male characters) or hyper femininized (for female characters), so it was refreshing to see a character that wasn't on one end of the spectrum or the other (And no, a woman showing emotion is hardly "sexist" especially since those scenes were linked primarily to emotional trauma from her childhood). It is ironic but I think these people saying it was "sexist" would have been A-OK if Samus showed zero emotion and was basically a standard Rambo male hero personality, basically taking on the mantle of the sexist male hero.


Like I said though, it still was flawed in its execution (such as the trauma scene, while I could still rationalize it in some ways, I wish it would have been built up better and elaborated on a bit more), though I hope Nintendo builds on this characterization of Samus, a character that does not fall into the trap of the hyper masculinized heroes of most other games out there, and provides her emotional depth.  I also enjoyed the retcon (I see Other M honestly as more of a retelling/retcon of the series and finally building Samus as a real character instead of an avatar where the player interprets who she is, which has been the case in most previous games in the series) of her suit being linked to her emotional state as well. Overall while flawed, I did like the story (though I did not like the constant, pointless narration by Samus, it was extremely unnecessary. Not to mention the clunky dialog).

In regards to Gameplay, I found the game a lot of fun to play, and enjoyed most of the boss battles, not to mention enjoyed the various homages to Super Metroid. Still wished it took place on something other then a space station, I wasn't thrilled with Fusion being placed on one either. With that said, I beat the game within 2 days, and enjoyed virtually every second of it.

Really? Samus was saved by Baby Metroid (who sacrificed itself, otherwise Samus would have died at the hands of Mother Brain) and by bounty hunters in Corruption on at least one occasion (though it has been awhile since I played Corruption so I may be wrong).

I guess I'll just dig up an old post on the "Rate the last game you played" thread

I think the main difference between the people who dislike the game and the fans of this particular game is that one group was able to ignore/tune out the story while the other couldn't. Gameplay wise, aside from the pixel hunting parts it was pretty solid but I'd be extremely suprised to see anyone unironically defend the game's horrid story.  I'll probably play this game now that i can roam freely around the bottle ship and can skip cutscenes now.

@GoldenPhoenix

+1 ... hundred.

@Lithium

Don't forget, dialogue and story are two separate things.  I hated the dialogue but loved the story.  You make a good point about some people not being able to overlook the bad to enjoy the good, though.  It certainly is a skill that varies not only person to person, but game to game. 

I am not immune to this.  I loved Conduit 1 but HATED Conduit 2.  Why? The game was better in nearly every way.  Except, they made Michael Ford (almost literally) into Duke Nukem.  I couldn't get past it.

I seen the story as more of a work in progress with Metroid Other M. Nintendo has never really attempted something quite as detailed as the story in Other M, complete with a ton of cutscenes, and dialogue. It was a refreshing step for them, even if one could argue that they shouldn't have done it with the Metroid series, and that is fair (though I would like to see it furthered in some capacity within the series, giving more balance to who Samus is). Besides video game stories are not really known for being amazing works of art, and compared to many games out there, the story was A+++ material (which I admit is pretty sad, but that says more about the lack of storytelling skills in the industry then anything)! I think most of the negativity around it is more over people's perceptions of who Samus should and shouldn't be based on their own interpretations from the limited characterization of her in previous games, more so then the story itself, that aspect alone seems to have created the most hostility.

It's not an issue of "perception" or "interpretation" when Samus acts completely contrary to the character established in previous games.  You want to argue that in the NES and Super NES Metroids that Samus was merely an avatar for the player because modern storytelling conventions weren't common back then?  Fine, but it doesn't explain how the Samus in Other M is completely different from the one shown in the Metroid Prime games, which were created with full cutscenes (albeit largely unvoiced).  But just like how Sakamoto almost seems to go out of his way to not reference the Western-made and more financially/critically successful Prime games, he likewise also probably didn't want to acknowledge the Samus character solidified by Western developers.

Both Fusion and Zero Mission also IIRC had internal monologue cutscenes and some dialogue, and Samus wasn't anywhere near as whiny and emotionally unstable as she was in Other M.  I don't remember reading posts and articles around the release of any of those games from people saying that "that's not Samus", yet that was commonly the case with Other M.  Other M's Samus is just very incongruous from her previous depictions, especially when it comes to her dealings with Ridley (which I've extensively detailed in my previous posts on this matter).  In fact, the only other Metroid product that apparently has a similar Samus was a Japan-only manga, to which I say "if it's not consistent with the other games, it's not canon."

Putting Samus' personality aside for a moment, wasn't it also established in her official biography that she is like 6'3" tall? So if that's the case, why is it that in nearly every cutscene in Other M everybody seems to tower over her? It seems to me either all the other characters in the game are like 7ft tall, or Sakamoto cut her height down to a more average level. Which is it?

My beef with Nintendo this gen in a nutshell.  The issue stems from a desire to "prove" something that isn't true.  Motion controls aren't the be-all-end-all so not permitting the classic controller to be used in DKC Returns comes across as a deliberate attempt to "prove" their superiority by not providing the comparison.  There's a childish stubborness to it, like having classic controls would make motion controls look bad and thus make Nintendo look like fools for pushing it so hard.  Sakamoto did the same thing with Other M.  If he allowed the option to use the nunchuk then it would suggest his idea of just using the remote isn't necessarily a good idea.  Better to force everyone to use inferior controls than to admit to being wrong or that his original idea didn't work well when they tried it.  Sacrifice the game's quality to "prove" a failed point.

Chozo hit it on the head regarding the game bossing you around constantly.  If I want someone constantly telling me what to do, um, I have my job for that as well as the government.  In my leisure time I don't want to play something that simulates being under someone else's thumb.  While we're at it, let's make a game about doing chores and feeling sick and waiting in line and getting kicked in the balls.  All of life's annoying bullshit, carefully recreated in videogame form.

Maybe the actual story itself in Other M is fine. Who knows. I can't tell because the actual storyTELLING is unbearable. The laziest, least cinematic way to tell stories in any visual medium is through straightforward narration. Another terrible storytelling technique is overt, on the nose dialog. Main characters should also not be confined to a narrow emotional range for very long. Other M has ALL of these things.

Does the game deserve a pass because this is Nintendo's first attempt at something like this? I mean it's understandable, but no, it doesn't. The best thing to come out of this generation is the improved storytelling in video games. Games like Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption, GTAIV, Mass Effect, Uncharted, Portal, Ghost Trick, etc. have all raised the bar considerably in this area. Really, I'm beyond fine with Nintendo not including narrative in their games at all or doing so minimally, but if you're gonna have a lot of story in a game these days, you better know how to do it right.

@GoldenPhoenix

+another hundred

@broodwars

You're discrediting a lot for being inconsistent with something it could not possibly be consistent with.  That's not the basis for a good argument.  Other M, parts of Fusion and the Manga had attempts at deep plot.  The other games did not.  You can't fault one for not being consistent with the other.

Btw, I'm glad you mentioned Fusion.  A game that probably WOULD have gotten similar treatment if the dialogue had been given voice.  Here are some examples people might not be familiar with ... everyone, try reading them with Samus' voice actress in your head ... (spoilers below... obviously)

A lot of that sounds like it's plucked right from Other M, don't it?

Samus had little to no personality in the Prime games, they largely referenced the Avatar esque take on her. Other M was really the first game to truly delve into her complexities as a character, and I APPRECIATE that. I've always viewed Other M as a retcon/reimagining of the series, including Samus, to push it beyond the avatar portrayal of Samus.

And of course no one complained about Samus in the Prime games, they hardly even dealt with her character at all. They are fantastic games, but hardly attempted to make her a complex, real, character, in fact they primarily took the easy way out and didn't really touch on who she is at all. Fusion and Other M have been the first real attempts to flesh out, and yes, in some ways, retcon/reimagine Samus as a real character, not a cliche masculinized bounty hunter.

Besides, whether one likes it or not, I get the feeling Sakamoto would not consider the Prime games canon, and frankly he likely has the most control (besides Nintendo themselves) over what is and isn't. I'd argue that the Samus in Fusion, personality wise, is contradictory to the Prime depiction of her. And with Ridley, if the Prime games aren't considered Canon, she would have destroyed Ridley only twice previously. To see him come back a third time would have to be emotionally jarring to say the least. We also have to keep in mind that Sakamoto based her character off of Ripley of the Alien series, and she too experienced post-traumatic stress disorder when she re encountered the alien species again and had to overcome that trauma (like Samus did in Other M).


Anyway, this discussion will keep going around and around, so I'm stepping out of the discussion. I'll just end by saying I am glad Nintendo is giving Samus a personality, and making her more then the typical emotionless hero found in other games. If it contradicts the Prime games, then so be it, because I don't believe they even really tried to make her an emotionally complex character. I want to see the series evolve beyond being all alone and without emotion. If it takes some retconning or eliminating some games from the series canon, then so be it.


I enjoyed Other M, and found it to be a promising new step for the series, even if it has some major flaws in its storytelling, including how Samus was depicted (I do NOT think her characterization was perfect by any means, but I found it much better in this then any other game in the series which felt awfully generic and cliche).

I don't believe I said they deserve a pass, but I want them to continue to learn from it and improve upon it instead of abandoning it because it was flawed.

I think Extra Credits' episode on other M would be very relevant to this thread, it's basically about what we can learn about how Other M was handled.

The problem is the Aura of mystery surrounding Samus is now completely gone. You can no longer wonder or imagine. Its now in your face, and if you don't like it there's nothing you can do about it.

Someone compared it earlier in the thread to the Star Wars prequels. Before 1999 a Star Wars fan had a lot of room to use their imagination of the events which happened before A New Hope, but now they can't. There used to be this magical mysterious thing known as the "Force" and I was always fascinated by that and wondered how that worked, but then in 1999 A Phantom Menace came out and it was explained it was just some microscopic bacteria called Midi Chlorians. I was like "....oh. ok." and from that moment forward the whole appeal and wonder and magic I felt over the whole thing just instantly evaporated. When it was left open to interpretation I loved it, but then having it explained I was severely disappointed.

That's my feelings regarding the Samus character as well. When she was just an "avatar of the player" she was open to a lot of interpretation. We didn't know much about her past or her personality, but now thanks to Other M we know more than I would like to have known. My reaction again was "oh.... ok." and my heart sank, and from that day forward I no longer view Samus the same way as I have since I first played Metroid as a little kid. I got an idea way back then of how Samus was and I loved her, but now I see Sakamoto's vision and I was severely disappointed... I felt like a balloon that had been popped.

I liked Other M for the most part. It's hardly the best Metroid game but as a whole, it's a good game. Despite the handholding, the gameplay was fun. Aside from story and characterization, Nintendo got 90% of everything else right. The problem is that all of the flaws stack up and become super noticeable.

I suppose my problem with the characterization of Samus in Other M is that she's not only is she pretty unbelievable as a woman, but she's completely unbelievable as a heroine. What kind hero does the kinds of things she does in the cutscenes? Her flaws don't make her relatable because they don't make sense in Other M's place in the series.

Still, I appreciate that Nintendo attempted to expand upon and humanize Samus because honestly, she was only female in that the series established that she has lady parts. That was it. Nothing about Samus being female changed anything about the series. The player just took control of a hot blond chick under layers of armor. To that effect, Samus was an almost blank canvas. However, Sakamoto's writing sucks. He doesn't know how to use metaphors effectively and despite the fact that he penned Metroid Fusion, he still managed to write a conflicting interquel. How did that... I don't even... Worst of all, he gave Samus a bunch of stereotypical female traits and kept adding layer upon layer of it to the point where Samus was practically a parody of a woman. It came off to me that he doesn't know anything about women. Not that I'm an expert, but Samus' persona was so poorly handled that it was obvious that he was fudging it. I kept thinking while playing Other M, "You'd have to be mentally unstable to behave this way."

Moving forward, how does Nintendo reconcile this? Either they start over or they ignore Other M happened. Seriously, if you excise Other M from the mythos, you don't miss a beat. Fusion is a much better sequel to Super Metroid anyway. I think there's a good opportunity to make Samus interesting; Other M just didn't take advantage of it.

I wouldn't mind a sequel to Other M, as long as you play as Higgs, whom I felt was the true hero of the first game. As for Samus, after that whole debacle I think the character is finished and should be swept into the waste basket and forgotten. That doesn't mean the Metroid franchise itself can't live on, though... but let the new hero be Higgs.

Hmm... no... I respectfully disagree. I still love Samus.

One of Sakamoto's goofs is wanting to de-emphasize the Metroid Prime games and potentially remove them from canon.  The problem is that this isn't like the Superman movie series retconning out sequels that no one liked.  Metroid Prime was well received.  Sakamoto is crapping on a game that is a contender for best game on the Gamecube and best game of its generation.  If he is assuming that Metroid fans don't like the Metroid Prime games and want to ignore them he's out-to-lunch.

Retro brought Metroid into 3D and surpassed anyone's expectations.  They succeeded like EAD succeeded with Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time and maintained Nintendo's reputation of a spotless record in bringing their old 2D franchises into 3D.  Sakamoto is presenting Other M almost like it's 3D Metroid "done right".  Except that that already happened.  Sakamoto set out to fix a problem that didn't exist.  It's more like HE just doesn't like Metroid Prime so he's going to set things the way he wants and ironically he did a worse job and pretty much sunk his entire reputation in one clean sweep.

And it was so unnecessary because it isn't like the Metroid franchise was stolen from him.  Metroid Prime was the spin-off.  Metroid Fusion was the continuation of the "main" series so he could have kept going with the 2D games without ever acknowledging Metroid Prime.  Does Miyamoto get all hissy fitty about Paper Mario and decide he's going to do Mario RPG the REAL way?  No, because he's not 12 years old and he's fine with sticking to the main Mario series.  Sakamoto's immature writing actually fits that of someone who would get all hissy fitty about another developer working on "his" series.  The sheer existence of Other M suggests the work of an immature individual and the embarassing execution just confirms it.

Ian may be onto something... maybe Samus being so emotional in Other M is a reflection of Sakamoto and his own personality. Maybe Samus breaking down and crying in the game is based off Sakamoto's reaction to Retro taking "his" Metroid franchise, and then upstaging him by making a superior version. Maybe that really got to him so much that he did break down and cry in real life, and made him so desperate to take the series back and make it his own again.

Then you have the dictatorial Adam character telling Samus and everyone else what to do. Maybe Sakamoto identified with this Adam character. Maybe that's a window into his mindset while making this game and his feeling over Retro and what they did with "his" franchise.

I can never tell if you're being serious or just like deadpan humour

No one wants to field this simple "yes" or "no" question?

I HATE THIS GAME. HATE IT.


I got it for FREE by winning a contest and I still HATED IT SO MUCH I TRADED IT IN, WITHOUT COMPLETION. ITS NOT EVEN WORTH MY TIME TO FINISH THIS TURD.
NO, NO NO. I don't care if it was FREE for me, NOT WORTH IT.
The controls are awful and story was terrible.


I love Metroid games, but this was easily the worst Metroid game.


Pixel hunting in First person = chore
first person elements are horrible compared to Prime Trilogy controls


I really hate this game.

From a gameplay perspective, I thought Other M was a step backward.  In the 2D games, you had a way to toggle missiles on and off.  In the Prime games, missiles had a dedicated button.  In Other M, you had to plant your feet and practically immobilize yourself to use missiles.  Yeah, you could shake the remote to dodge using Quicksense, but you still lost your freedom of movement.  Quicksense also took a lot of challenge out of battles.  Just rapidly tap the D-pad when in battle and Samus will usually jump out of the way of any attacks that come close.

It was also disappointing how items were practically stripped out of the game.  Energy tanks are always nice, but missile pickups only increase your maximum capacity by one now, and accel charges are just boring.  Samus already has everything else, it's just a matter of being told you can use it, and there aren't any fun optional items to seek out like the spring ball in Super Metroid. 

Speaking of being told you can use your items, Adam is an idiot.  Having been in the military, I can understand not authorizing Samus' more powerful weapons due to rules of engagement, use of necessary force, etc., but there is no reason why that would result in her disabling her protective equipment.  Not to mention the sheer idiocy of shooting a teammate in the back, completely disabling their protective gear as a metroid hovers overhead, then proceeding to shoot the metroid with a weapon that it is supposedly immune to due to genetic manipulation.  And this is the "perfect military mind" she refers to in Fusion?  The fact that he seems so incompetent in Other M makes Samus look bad for having such a strong infatuation with him.

You also don't get the satisfaction of taking out a number of key targets.  The Deleter, found dead.  Ridley, sucked dry by metroids.  MB, frozen by Madeline, then shot and killed by the other military unit that showed up.  Having the game complete your objectives for you should be done through Super Guides or cheat codes because you suck, not because it's an integral part of the game.

Found the game for $5.  My interest has been piqued with all the arguing back-and-forth in this thread to invest the time to play it.  This'll be interesting, especially since it's my first Metroid game.

That might actually be beneficial to you. Then, you can move on to the better ones, namely Super Metroid and Metroid Prime... unless Other M scars you so much that you don't want to.

I must say, I've never actually played this game, and I feel bad about it. As a lover of Metroid, the negative response to the story and characters really pushed me away from getting it- even though it was released on my birthday. The silly story choice of "permission" seemed ludicrous, but I still have always wanted to see how the game played and wanted to experience it for myself. Maybe the discussion over the month can sway me.

You can get it new at GameStop for $10.  If nothing else, that's a decent price for some Club Nintendo coins.

Agreed.  But is it any more ludicrous than an alien planet being full of compatible missile and energy upgrades?

Or starting every mission with only the base equipment?

In other words, there are some choices that merely reflect that this is still a video game.... and that's not such a bad thing!

Yes, it is.  The former has usually been explained away fairly easily by the plot (even if Fusion's version of it is just...weird), and the latter can be filled in by your imagination.  But the whole "permission" system just makes Samus and Adam look like morons, especially when it comes to the defensive equipment like the Varia Suit.

It does. But there's far less of it and the lack of voice acting makes things far less terrible. And Fusion is, for me, a far more enjoyable game despite also being rather linear, which helps.

@broodwars

Use your imagination, eh?  :) So, what was the story you used to tell yourself for how all this compatible gear got lodged deep within the bowels of an alien planet?

You know, in my imagination, people understand that the one scene with the armor upgrade is in Other M because they wanted to make for a tense scene in video game.  Do I agree with it? No.  Do I understand why they did it? Not really, no.  Do I find it sexist, offensive and abhorrent? HELL FLIPPIN' NO!

@TrueNerd

Exactly.  The delivery method and amount was new, not the content/characterization.

*sigh*

You do understand what the terms "latter" and "former" mean, right?  You got them reversed just now.  I was saying that you can use your imagination (unless the game explains otherwise, as Metroid Primes 1 and 2 do) for why Samus starts some games with only the base equipment.  The presence of the compatible alien technology is usually explained away either by the manual or in-game text.  The Prime games seem to go out of their way to explain it with Lore scans.

Well, in the case of Samus, the amount does affect the characterization. And the way the voice over is acted and handled does as well.

So, is this game worth paying ten dollars for, or am I better off not wasting my time and money on?

Well, I love A Boy and His Blob, but this Game Club is already way more interesting.


@Oblivion - Yes it is. Pick it up for $10.

Alrighty. I'll buy it and put it in my backlog.

@broodwars

Sorry, honest mix-up.  Though I actually find the way you intended even more surprising.  I don't recall anything explaining the item placement (aside from the Chozo stuff obviously) in the original manuals.  Got a link?

@TrueNerd

um, no... the evidence to Samus' character is either there or not there.  As Fusion and the manga (which people like to ignore, and hey, it's not a game so .... I can understand the temptation) showed, that is who Samus has always been.

Even the "sexualization" is present from the very first game when you can see her in a bikini!

It's even more revealing than the Zero Suit, but as I've been saying in many regards to the game, it was the technology that changes people's views.  If you rendered Samus' bikini version from the NES original in gorgeous modern CGI? Yea.... stop the presses! Nintendo porn!  And you'd have people crying about how Samus used to be tougher than that.... or something ....

The same is true of the voice acting, as you alluded to earlier.

@Oblivion

If you can distance yourself from the mayhem that surrounds the game (ie. discussions like this one) you will get far more than $10 worth of quality video gaming.  Enjoy.

I loved Metroid: Other M. In fact, it's my second fav Metroid game behind Super Metroid. NinSage, I'm with ya, bro. The game is excellent, and I loved every second of it.

I looked up the original Metroid manual, and while it goes surprisingly in-depth on the whole "space pirate" thing and Samus' mission (amusingly referring to Samus as a man) it really doesn't mention the Chozo.  The Super Metroid one does at least mention them, and the fact that the upgrade technology is theirs.  It doesn't look like the whole Chozo-Samus backstory was really started until the Nintendo Power comic, and it wasn't solidified until Metroid Prime (with Zero Mission having the Chozo Statues and a flashback sequence to tie-into the Metroid Prime mythology).

@Rachtman

Stay strong, brotha.  :P: ;) Remember, most Metroid fans agree with us: link

@broodwars

I meant all the random missile expansions and energy tanks.

for $10? yeah for sure, i had a great time with the story since I was laughing hysterically the whole time through the cutscenes. The actual game part is good though with the exception of the hunt and peck portions (just use a faq for them)

Fixed.

It's all Chozo technology, though the way the 2D Metroids hide their upgrades in solid blocks pretty much falls under the "It's magic. I don't have to explain it." rule of design.  ;)  Honestly, I think the real edge cases are Metroid Prime 2 and Fusion, where apparently Luminoth technology is compatible with Chozo tech (Prime 2) and special abilities can be downloaded from the internet (Fusion).  I suppose both are plausible in their own ways, given that the Luminoth are one of the three ancient races and probably had dealings with the Chozo.  And the Fusion suit is partially Federation tech, so I guess that works.

As far as I know, from back when I was involved in such things, MDb is one of the top 3 Metroid communities on the web.... I feel like it could have been argued for #1 back then, but, as I said, that was a few years ago ...

If I ignore everything about Other M that I absolutely hate (the story, the writing, the pixel hunts, the forced item progression, the fact that you can't 100% the game before facing the Queen, the WORST FINAL BOSS "FIGHT" OF ANY GAME EVER, etc.), I like the game. The gameplay is generally surprisingly good.

I genuinely believe that Other M is meant to replace Fusion in the mainline continuity, though. I honestly do. There are lots of reasons for it, and I'll be writing about it for a feature this month. We may also debate it on Connectivity.

agreed. the core game play is fine, it's the stuff surrounding it that drags the game's reputation down.

It would kind of have to or at least one of them has to not count because they don't make sense in the same series, such as Samus learning of a Metroid cloning program and the Nightmare boss showing up. Other M attempts to explain that away by having the Galactic Federation extract its remains from the Bottle Ship but Samus never does say, "Oh, you again..." in Fusion. Yeah, I understand the whole "how can you reference a story that hasn't been written yet?" However, don't write a story that way just because you think something is cool (which is the problem most fanfiction runs into) or, preferably, plan it ahead of time.

My hope is that Other M is ignored because, despite being a decent game, it's still worse than Fusion.

The quotes I listed above directly reference events in Other M.  What more evidence could you need? It may not be 100%, but do we need to list great works of fiction (not saying Other M is great) that have < 100% consistency? You may not be currently enjoying it, but Sakamoto has had a vision for quite some time and this is it.*

@Adrock

I'm not even sure that's a plot hole as much as a plot-not-able-to-see-100%-into-the-future.  As mentioned above, they still did a rather admirable job fitting the events of Other M into the quotes I provided from Fusion.  *In the grand scheme of video games that attempt to have complex plots, overall, this is still pretty well done!! (again, this does not include the dialogue. Merely the events.)

Another thing to consider is the Bikini Samus was only revealed at the very end of the game, and for a very short period of time. The form fitting Zero suit on the other hand reveals every nook and cranny, and is shown for a longer length of time during the cutscenes, and even during gameplay in some cases.

Its also a bit debatable that the Bikini is more revealing, because the Bikini isn't spandex and doesn't mold itself to her like a second skin the way the Zero suit does. Granted, the bikini does cover less skin, though.

Are you for... Seriously?

Not only are they completely avoidable plot holes considering Fusion already existed but they're created by Other M's very existence. Other M almost does a decent job of fitting in between Metroid 3 and 4. All Sakamoto needed to do was not step on the toes of a story he wrote himself some 8 years earlier. He has access to all of his notes and reference materials because they're his notes. If he can't be bothered to keep track of his own shit, he shouldn't have that responsibility. 

The whole thing about the logic of an alien planet just happening to have compatible upgrades for Samus calls into the rule of fun.  Videogames are supposed to be fun so certain leaps of logic have to exist to make them that way.  Why does the enemies base have all sorts of bottomless pits in it?  Why does every area Mario visits have floating question mark boxes with mushrooms in them?  And then there's the really basic stuff like how your character has multiple lives, can survive getting hit by missiles if they have enough "health" and never has to go to the bathroom.  A good videogame has certain concessions like that to make the game fun.

I find that psychologically finding new abilities is more fun than having those abilities and being told you can't use them yet.  In one case you're under someone else's thumb and in the other you're taking matters into your own hands.  Plus in Super Metroid there is a sense of accomplishment.  You look on the map and see an area you have not discovered yet.  You head over there, dealing with the dangers on the way and find... a Chozo statue!  Now you have a new ability and immediately you realize you can access this area and that area that you had passed before!  That's fun and satisfying.  In Other M the game just arbitrarily says "okay you have this now" and forget about thinking about what new areas you can explore now.  Nope.  The game is going to tell you where you can and can't go.

Look up "Justin Bailey."

@Adrock

I'm sorry.  I must not be understanding the depth/severity of the plot contradiction you're trying to describe.  Can you elaborate on it?  Just throw up some SPOILER warnings if you need to really go in depth.

The only thing in Other M that can be considered a plot hole for Fusion is when she discovers the cloned Metroids in that game, but even then it's not a true plot hole.  For all we know Samus could have thought after all the crazy sh!t that went down in Other M, the Federation would have realized how dangerous it is to clone Metroids and not do it again.  Yeah that would be kind of stupid of Samus think that after Other M's events showed her the Federation wasn't filled with trustworthy people but still, it doesn't constitute a full plot hole.  When she's telling Adam she thought all the Metroids were dead, she could still be talking about the events of Other M since after Other M she could have thought all the Metroids were dead again.

The Nightmare thing you keep bringing up isn't close to a plot hole since Samus doesn't even say anything when she see's Nightmare in Fusion because it's just a normal boss fight where you enter a room and then start fighting.  During the times she talks to Adam and he tells her about a weapon, how is she suppose to know it was the same thing she fought in Other M since she doesn't actually see the creature in Fusion until she finally fights it.  The story fits perfectly fine where she fought Nightmare in Other M, the Federation rebuilds it afterwards, she ends up fighting it again in Fusion. 


Just because they didn't have some kind of special text bubble before the fight doesn't make it a plot hole.  To say that Nightmare being in Fusion is a plot hole just because Samus doesn't say anything would be like saying Kraid, Ridley and Mother Brain being in Super Metroid is a plot hole since they were all killed in the original Metroid but Samus never says anything in a text bubble at the start of the fight.

@LuigiDude

Yea, what you said is much more in line with the impression I was under.  Thanks for sharing it.

what the what


when did i say that?

How can you have part of a plot hole? It's either one or it isn't. As it stands, without an explanation, it makes no sense. Your making excuses for what is ultimately just bad writing. For a story that force feeds every plot point ad nauseum, I find it extremely suspect that Sakamoto chooses this one instance to leave it up to interpretation.

How is she suppose to... He calls it "Nightmare." Then, he describes what it is, what it does, and why it's so dangerous.

http://i.imgur.com/kyc26.png

http://i.imgur.com/SK0I6.png

http://i.imgur.com/XgMQQ.png

http://i.imgur.com/F82r7.png

http://i.imgur.com/3Y0Xm.png

So you mean to tell me that Ship-Adam tells Samus all of that and her reaction would be, "Wha- Well, that could be anything!" Other M creates a plot hole because these events are inconsistent and Fusion now blatantly disregards that Samus already knows what the Nightmare is based on Other M's place chronologically. Sakamoto goes out of his way to include this enemy in an attempt to tie the games together but he pushes them further apart.

Samus is never told of Nightmare's name in Other M though.  In Other M, Nightmare is just some creature Samus fights and is never talked to about it.  When Adam describes it in Fusion, the only part of his discription that's similar to the creature she fought in Other M is the ability to manipulate gravity but how is Samus suppose to know it's the exact same creature she fought in Other M?  For all she knew, they could have created a new type of gravity manipulating monster that was completely different from the one she fought in Other M.

Considering Nightmare was a top secret weapon for the Federation, only high ranking officals like Adam actually knew it's name.  Since Adam never tells Samus the name of the creature in Other M, it's literally impossible for her to know what Nightmare is until the exact moment she fights it in Fusion.  So once again, this part of Other M isn't a plot hole because it is pretty easily explainable.

I will go and play it again, but before doing so I must re-confess that NEVER have I felt this betrayed by a Nintendo product and the gaming press/gaming fans.
  Other M has its production value in all the wrong places, being visually uninspired and extremely poorly laid out level-wise, with messy boss fights and a broken, basically non-existent hint/scan/info-system.


I can stomach the ridiculously forced story, but knowing that so much money was spent on CGI and voice work, when the game itself had so many gaping holes is hard on the old innards.




I'll report back after giving it another spin.

Personally, any Nightmare "plot holes" with Fusion are so far from the worst issues with that game's story that I don't really consider them worth caring about by comparison.  At least there's precedence for stuff like that, considering just how often Ridley seems to get revived (as well as Kraid for Super Metroid).

The reviving of Ridley can be explained through the art of cloning and the obsession of the space pirates to keep bringing him back.

So if we go from a game everyone likes to a game everyone is divided on, will next time's game be one that everyone hates? If so, go with Carmageddon 64.

It may actually be a good starting point since you don't have an idealized vision of what Metroid should be, but just remember that other Metroid games are not like this (except maybe Metroid Fusion).

Really? You think Samus would just chalk it up to there being a different random gravity manipulating monster wreaking havoc on a similar vessel and draw absolutely no comparisons to the one that tried to kill her on the very day her mentor, friend, and father figure sacrificed himself due to Galactic Federation negligence. All of that despite her nostalgic elevator asides about Adam. Then, after destroying Nightmare a second time, she wouldn't mention it at all or question the motives of the people who sent her on this mission who may also potentially be behind the massive cloning conspiracy that she uncovered the last time she took down Nightmare. That's what happened? Okay...

So, she doesn't know the name of it and so no comparisons a drawn? At all? None? Then, after killing it again, nothing still? That's a pretty shoddy explanation for what simply amounts to poor writing. Sakamoto could have avoided this by just not putting the creature in there. Problem solved. What you're doing is trying to make sense of what the game doesn't or does badly. You're trying to fill in the holes in a game that demanded that players do no such thing because it didn't trust them enough to draw simple comparisons to babies and bottles and motherhood without shoving it down their throats. In a story so blatant about everything, there is no room for interpretation. Sakamoto's writing in Other M is negligent and flat-out awful at times. These instances of poor writing completely changes how one views Samus and the events of Fusion. If we are to take Other M as is, as the prequel to Fusion rather than in place of it, Samus is, at best, suffering from amnesia or, at worst, an idiot.

I think a lot of these debates involve things people have just plain already made their minds up about.

If anyone feels like indulging me, I think an interesting exercise might be finding out how this board feels about the game in more broad terms.

Post below if your impression of the game is overall "good," "bad," or "split."  If this yields any interesting results I can propose some more detailed polls.  But this is a good starting point.

I have a better idea: How about Superman 64? ;)

But Carmageddon 64 is worse, if you can believe that. Gotta make sure everyone hates it.

I gave up on this game after the fire area and never really went back to it. BUT now with the site running this feature, I'm definitely gonna have to go back and finish this Mother (c whut I did thar)

Look, we're all assuming that Other M takes place between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. What I'm suggesting is that Other M retcons Fusion out of the continuity entirely. According to Other M, Fusion never happened. It also conveniently allows Sakamoto to avoid dealing with the aftermath of Fusion (Samus is part Metroid now) by creating a new canon.

I thought Nintendo already acknowledged that Other M does take place between Metroid 3 and 4. However, I definitely understand what you're saying. I don't think they can co-exist in the same series (at least not without some major finagling) and if anything, I really wish Other M is tossed out as a one-off experiment.

Since finishing Fusion, I've been curious where Nintendo was going to take the fusion aspect since, as you said, she is part Metroid though I'm not really a fan of the Fusion suit. It's second only to the yo-yo shoulder Dark Suit in Samus' ugliest alt suits. The whole fusion thing seemed like a cool way to move the story forward. Instead of avoiding it, Nintendo should have not only confronted it but drove into it full bore. It was something that practically forced Nintendo to at least consider rethinking how the series works with Fusion as the intermediary.

But there's nothing in Other M that makes Fusion unable to happen.  Plus Sakamoto himself even says this game takes place between Super Metroid and Fusion which means that's were it takes place.


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2010/09/qa-metroid-other-m-director-yoshio-sakamoto/1#.T6CWPe2sSS0

Sakamoto also likes to pretend the Prime games aren't canon, so I honestly couldn't care less what he thinks about the canon of the franchise.

Oh not this stupid bullsh!t again.  He's never said the Prime games weren't canon, just that the Prime games are a different story arc then his games.  It's no different then how comic books have different artist do different storylines all the time but they're still part of the same overall series.



Hell, it's no different then how the Mario platformers don't use characters and locations from the different Mario RPG games even though the RPG's have created a lot of new characters and locations.  The teams that do the games prefer to do their own things their own way, it doesn't mean one team hates the other.  Just because Sakamoto prefers to do his own thing with the Metroids he creates doesn't mean he hates what the other team does.


Seriously, it's like some of you Sakamoto haters are just looking to make things up to hate about him.  I bet if he actually did use elements from the Prime games and even mention the Prime games in Other M's story you would then be complaining that he's ruining the Prime series now.

100% False.

100% True.

100% False.  He even took a loose supervisory role in the creative direction of Prime 1+2.

Plus, if you don't care what the god damn primary creative director thinks then your roll in this conversation is unnecessary.  Sorry, friend =\

~~~

This is why I offered to boil things down into simple likes and dislikes... some of you folks have gone off the deep end with your completely baseless conclusions.

As I've stated before, the interesting thing about Other M is that each and every one of its flaws both minor and severe (and they are many) are directly attributable to Sakamoto.  Being "primary creative director" does not make him an infallible god (especially in light of how poorly Other M sold to Nintendo's expectations, and in comparison to Retro's works), and in my opinion he needs to turn the franchise over to people who actually know what they're doing and can restore the series to relevancy (like folks at Retro who are willing or perhaps a protege).

Sakamoto chose to make Other M his baby, and now he should pay the consequence for his failure and design choices by stepping aside and only fulfilling a supervisory role like he did with the Prime games.  Considering those are the games that have had greater critical and financial success, I'd argue it's in the best interest of the series that he has as little to do with it as possible.

Amusingly, I'd argue that Nintendo should be prepared to welcome Team Ninja back to the franchise for the next game.  Whatever Other M's problems, Team Ninja did their job well and turned in a very polished and mechanically competent game.  Retro wants to distance itself from this series, so in my opinion Team Ninja's more than welcome to do the heavy lifting under the supervision of a designer other than Sakamoto.

Thankfully the emphasis is on "loose", because the Prime games probably would have been less awesome if he had more control on them.

I don't hate him. But I do think his talents would be better used in making more WarioWare games and things like that. That's the sort of games he is good at, and that's what he should do. Story telling is obviously not his strong point, so any sort of game that involves any sort of plot or story whatsoever should be put in the hands of someone who is more talented in that respect.

If you look at a list of the games he has known for being involved in almost all of them are silly little casual mini game things, and then there is Metroid which is completely different from everything else he does and it stands out. On the list of games he does Metroid seems like something that doesn't belong there, and you can't help but wonder why the hell is he involved in this game when its so very different from everything else he is known for? Its like a professional Circus Clown that also does a little brain surgery on the side. It makes no sense.

I think it's notable that the Prime games sold better than Other M. I attribute this to Metroid possibly doing better in America anyway, the Prime games being critically acclaimed, and Other M being critically panned. And yeah, he had a loose supervisory role in the first two Prime games, but I'm pretty sure Miyamoto had MORE to do with the game's design. He's the one who had Retro change the game from an over-the-shoulder (boulder holder) third-person view to an FPS.

I agree that Team Ninja did a great job on the game's production values. If the whole thing was left up to them, I'd bet money the game would have been better overall.

Miyamoto of all people had it changed to a first person camera? Is it known why he did that? I figured he'd want it to be third person.

I'm spent.

People need more Sakamoto here, less there, more Team Ninja, no Team Ninja, they say Fusion doesn't count, Fusion isn't accounted for enough, Sakamoto shouldn't author or supervise his own stories, and "Other M critically panned" (79% on metacritic, 1M+ units sold).

There's no reasoning when people object to the reasons themselves!

Have fun, fellas.

He originally wanted Ocarina of Time to be 1st person as well. I recall an old interview where Miyamoto mentioned that 1st person was ideal for Metroid because there are a lot of enclosed spaces and corridors. I'd have to dig through a pile of old EGMs to find the exact quote.

And you're objecting to their reasoning. That's what makes it a discussion. That's (presumably) what we're all doing on an Internet message board in the first place. Welcome to the party. Glad you could make it.

Considering how terrible Ninja Gaiden 3 ended up, this is completely false.  Other M and Ninja Gaiden 3 are the two new action games that Team Ninja made after Itagaki left.  Other M which Sakamoto told Team Ninja what to do ended up good, Ninja Gaiden 3 which Team Ninja did on their own, ended up bad.  People love to trash Sakamoto because of the storyline, but it's become very clear that his guidance at least kept Team Ninja in line so the gameplay itself didn't end up total sh!t like Ninja Gaiden 3 did when the current Team Ninja is left to work on their own.

It's like how other companies like Rare, Silicon Knights, Factor 5 and Next Level Games make good games when Nintendo designers are guiding them, but there's a huge drop in quality when they're left alone.  Sakamoto might have had some flawed idea's but he at least kept Team Ninja from making the game a total disaster like Ninja Gaiden 3 ended up being.

Sakamoto was largely responsible for my favorite game ever: Super Metroid. I have no major issues with him as a game designer, just as a storyteller. Other M suffers because of its storytelling but nixing those elements leaves you with the closest we've ever seen to a traditional style Metroid game in 3D which is good or bad depending on who you ask. I liked the gameplay despite it mostly repositioning the camera to be a 3D game. It's no where near as refined as the Prime games but I didn't think it was bad, simply different. In terms of gameplay, I think there's a lot of untapped potential.

I harp on Sakamoto's faults as a storyteller but I understand the pressure he was under to move Metroid in that direction. With Fusion, he tried to accommodate players who hated feeling lost in Super Metroid's mostly subterranean world which fans scoffed at as intrusive handholding. He introduced more story elements because that was direction the industry was headed. That said, I think he should stick with what he's good at: being a game designer. He doesn't get everything right but pobody's nerfect.

From everything I've heard about Ninja Gaiden 3, the "problems" with that game came from series fans not liking that Team Ninja tried to actually make the series accessible, rather than yet another game in the series made for the 1% of the gaming population skilled/masochistic enough to handle constant punishment.  Maybe they went about it the wrong way (such as stripping out all but one weapon, with the others returned later via free DLC), but they had the right idea and from all appearances they turned out an average game.

And really, Adrock?  You really think the man who gave us...

- No backtracking and minimal exploration in a Metroid game.
- Forced Wiimote-only 3D gameplay on a console that has an analog stick attachment.
- Terrible static 1st person shooting that requires you to flip the Wiimote, a process that apparently didn't always work for some gamers.
- "Pixel Hunt" first-person sequences.
- Pointless "slow-moving, over the shoulder" 3rd person sequences.

...was "being good at...being a game designer"?  :confused;

Other M is actually bad enough for me to wonder how much credit Sakamoto deserves for Super Metroid.  Gunpei Yokoi used to get a lot of credit for the Metroid series but then as we became more familiar with who was involved, he was seen more as a general producer with Sakamoto doing the details.  Considering the post-Yokoi output, I wonder if Sakamoto needs someone to filter out his stupid ideas and Yokoi filled that role.

I liked Metroid Fusion but the whole time I couldn't help but feel that the game was too linear.  It still felt like Metroid and was still a good game but it was a bad sign in retrospect.  My feeling was that I could live with the series being this linear and story oriented but pushing it further than this would cross the line.

When someone who was seen as a creative genius appears to lose it, you can usually see it coming in hindsight.  You can look back at their earlier work and spot little clues.  You can spot signs of bad habbits that if they went wild would be a major problem.  You can see a bit of Phantom Menance in Star Wars and Heaven's Gate in The Deer Hunter.  Use Your Illusion in retrospect totally seems like the work of someone who would fuss around on an album for 15 years and alienate the rest of his band.  The downfall of Sonic was foretold in the Big the Cat segments of Sonic Adventure.  A minor flaw in a great piece of work can be a clue to the downfall of a later piece.

Metroid Fusion was the first Metroid game Sakamoto made without Yokoi and immediately he's trying to force the player on a linear path for the purposes of storytelling.  In retrospect it's the herald of Other M.  I think it's worth noting that this is his first Metroid game without Yokoi, suggesting that Yokoi reigned him in on this story stuff and that without him, Sakamoto had the freedom to go nuts.

Newfound freedom is usually what causes the "creative genius goes insane" phenomenon.  Usually they're reigned in by a partner or a producer or a publishing company or a limited budget or limited technology.  Something prevents them from doing what they REALLY want to do.  What they really want to do is self-indulgent hubris but someone or something prevents them from doing that and forces them into making something, you know, GOOD.  The "creative genius" is thus exposed as merely a cog in the machine that has some good ideas but needs some outside factor to filter out the crap.

Yes. He's a good game designer. To me, Super Metroid is nearly flawless. I can't think of one bad thing to say about the game. I kind of wish it was longer but that might have affected the pacing. You're picking apart one game but his track record is pretty solid. I admit Other M is not perfect but the bulk of its gameplay is good. I had fun with it.

Its like what happened to David Spade after Chris Farley died. The two of them had a dynamic which goes beyond what either of them were on their own, but then Farley died and now Spade is no longer funny and comes across as just an obnoxious asshole. Well, there are probably some who still find him funny obviously, because he still has a career, but we aren't seeing movies on par with Black Sheep from him these days.

It was a shame Gunpei Yokoi died like he did and when he did, but even if he lived his days at Nintendo were over, and if I'm not mistaken he would be in his 80s now, so whether he lived or not he still wouldn't be able to reign in Sakamoto and tell him "this is stupid. Don't do that!". Sakamoto is like a little kid and needs that sort of supervision, because without it things end up taking a turn towards stupidity.

In a way Gunpei Yokoi was like the Adam Malkovich to Sakamoto, both Gunpei and Adam end up dying at the end and both Samus and Sakamoto are left without their father figure to supervise them and they are forced to be independent. Is it at all possible that the Adam Malkovich character might have somehow been an homage to Gunpei Yokoi? Even if Sakamoto did it subconsciously?

Super Metroid released in 1994, 18 years ago.  At one time, when he was part of a team with a partner who kept him in check (Gunpei Yokoi), he could make what many people think is a good Metroid game (it's not a game I'm fond of, but I recognize its importance).  That doesn't mean I'm going to give him a pass on games he makes now.  Being considered a good game designer in a totally different era doesn't mean they'll always be good designers.  There's a real problem in the Japanese game industry (especially) with increasingly old men dictating games for a younger, modern generation.  At least Miyamoto has been wise enough to see it coming; train a new generation of designers to take over in his stead; and "retire" from major-title game development before he started ruining games, Star Fox Adventures nonwithstanding.

He's designed games in between Super Metroid and Other M, the latter just happens to be his latest and the only one people seem to have real issues with. I don't think that means he's not or no longer a good game designer. I'm not giving him a pass either. I've voiced my concerns about Other M. However, beyond the things you mentioned, I still enjoyed Other M's gameplay. There are better games (especially within the Metroid series) and there are far worse games.