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Wii

The House of the Dead: Overkill - Extended Cut Will Make Me Buy a Move

by Neal Ronaghan - May 27, 2011, 8:27 am PDT
Total comments: 46

The HD upgrade for Sega and Headstrong's excellent rail shooter is a killer app for me.

I can't say I'm surprised that Sega and Headstrong Games are bringing The House of the Dead: Overkill to PlayStation 3, complete with new levels, HD graphics, and Move support. I can say that, for better or worse, I must own a Move controller, possibly two, by the time this game comes out in October.

And I hate Sega and Headstrong for that, but for good reasons. I love The House of the Dead: Overkill. It might be my favorite game on Wii. It's one of the best rail shooters I've ever played. It also has a stupidly awesome and gross Grindhouse-style story and excellent music, complete with even better remixes. To top it all off, they say the "F" word. A lot.

I'll use this announcement as a soapbox to tell all Wii owners (over the right age, of course) to play this game. It's really good. If you have a Move, maybe you should hold out for that version. Regardless, just play it. I know I'll likely be picking it up come October. I also know I'll make a point of playing it at E3 next week.

Now that this is happening, can we have a direct sequel? Please? Cafe launch title? C'mon!

Images

Talkback

NinSageMay 27, 2011

I'm glad more folks will be playing this game again.

But, I gotta say this announcement is disappointing for the following reason...

Good Wii game comes out > WiiOwners: "yay! this is good!" > Others: "that looks stupid. it's just another . the Wii has no games."

That game does well enough to justify an HD investment > Others: "yay! now THIS game is good!" > WiiOwners: "yea! now we like the same thing!" > Others: "pshh. no. my version is enhanced.  your version sucks, just like your console. the Wii has no games."


Notable Examples: No More Heroes, NBA Jam, deBlob franchise.  The Wii should not be a test market.  Be brave, treat the Wii like a real market, and RE4 sales will follow.

I see your anger/distaste and raise you another viewpoint on Overkill. Headstrong Games freaking loved making this game. Sony released a controller similar to the Wii's. Headstrong and Sega talked about how to further the series, and a Move version was brought up. The move makes even more sense because Headstrong converted a Wii game to Move already (Aragorn's Quest).

The way I see this is that, if the Move version sells well, we're getting Overkill 2. If that games doesn't come to a Nintendo system, I'm making HouseofthedeadoverkillWorldReport.

CericMay 27, 2011

I'm guessing their isn't a way to turn off the swearing...
I'm really not a fan and I don't want my Son hearing it when he's suppose to be sleeping.

I'm trying to find an on-rail shooter to play with my 3 year old son...
He just got the PS3 Ray Gun shell to play with, I wanted it for the controller for kicks but it makes a good kid toy and it was half off.
Now he wants to Pow Pow in a game.  I've got Time Crisis 4 but for some reason it has now decided to split screen instead of doing the combine screen co-op...
I honestly think he really just wants to for cool gun noices and the Lollipop lighting up...

Edit:
Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

I generally liked, but didn't really love the original version of Overkill, largely because of how short and light on content it was.  I picked up a Move pretty much to play rail shooters and 3rd person shooters (which sadly no one outside of Sony seems interested in having Move support for), so as long as this version of the game is dramatically better I wouldn't mind playing through the game again in HD.  :D

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

How about the Move launch title "The Shoot"?  The game generally reviewed decently and I thought the demo was entertaining enough.  Plus, I think Gamestop still has a sale going on where it's Buy 1 Get 1 Free on certain Move software, so maybe you can find something you can salvage from that pile of crap (Heroes on the Move looks like the best title of the bunch, and that's just sad) you can pick up alongside it.

CericMay 27, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

How about the Move launch title "The Shoot"?  The game generally reviewed decently and I thought the demo was entertaining enough.  Plus, I think Gamestop still has a sale going on where it's Buy 1 Get 1 Free on certain Move software, so maybe you can find something you can salvage from that pile of crap (Heroes on the Move looks like the best title of the bunch, and that's just sad) you can pick up alongside it.

Where did you see the Gamestop Buy 1 Get 1 Free on Move Software?

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

How about the Move launch title "The Shoot"?  The game generally reviewed decently and I thought the demo was entertaining enough.  Plus, I think Gamestop still has a sale going on where it's Buy 1 Get 1 Free on certain Move software, so maybe you can find something you can salvage from that pile of crap (Heroes on the Move looks like the best title of the bunch, and that's just sad) you can pick up alongside it.

Where did you see the Gamestop Buy 1 Get 1 Free on Move Software?

It was in their weekly add for the first 2 weeks of May, which I get in my email.  Looking at this week's ad, though, I don't see the deal anymore so it may be over now.

CericMay 27, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

How about the Move launch title "The Shoot"?  The game generally reviewed decently and I thought the demo was entertaining enough.  Plus, I think Gamestop still has a sale going on where it's Buy 1 Get 1 Free on certain Move software, so maybe you can find something you can salvage from that pile of crap (Heroes on the Move looks like the best title of the bunch, and that's just sad) you can pick up alongside it.

Where did you see the Gamestop Buy 1 Get 1 Free on Move Software?

It was in their weekly add for the first 2 weeks of May, which I get in my email.  Looking at this week's ad, though, I don't see the deal anymore so it may be over now.

Darn.

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Made it clearer that I don't want to play House of the Dead with a 3 year old but, I am looking for suggestions still.

How about the Move launch title "The Shoot"?  The game generally reviewed decently and I thought the demo was entertaining enough.  Plus, I think Gamestop still has a sale going on where it's Buy 1 Get 1 Free on certain Move software, so maybe you can find something you can salvage from that pile of crap (Heroes on the Move looks like the best title of the bunch, and that's just sad) you can pick up alongside it.

Where did you see the Gamestop Buy 1 Get 1 Free on Move Software?

It was in their weekly add for the first 2 weeks of May, which I get in my email.  Looking at this week's ad, though, I don't see the deal anymore so it may be over now.

Darn.

Indeed.  Still, by all means check out the demo when the store is...finally...back up and see if it's something you might feel comfortable playing with him.  You're just shooting cardboard cutouts on movie sets so it's pretty tame, and I thought the Move controls worked pretty decently.

Also, now that I think of it, there's also a game on Wii based on the Toy Story shooting gallery at Disneyland/world.  It didn't review very well, but it might be what you're looking for.

BlackNMild2k1May 27, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

I'm guessing their isn't a way to turn off the swearing...
I'm really not a fan and I don't want my Son hearing it when he's suppose to be sleeping.

Actually all the swearing is part of the story. I don't want to say anymore than that.

Also the HD version of this game should up the swear count with 2 more chapters, since I hear (MafiaII?) stole the record for most swears in a game.

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Quote from: Ceric

I'm guessing their isn't a way to turn off the swearing...
I'm really not a fan and I don't want my Son hearing it when he's suppose to be sleeping.

Actually all the swearing is part of the story. I don't want to say anymore than that.

Also the HD version of this game should up the swear count with 2 more chapters, since I hear (MafiaII?) stole the record for most swears in a game.

I smell a contrived PR stunt...

CericMay 27, 2011

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Quote from: Ceric

I'm guessing their isn't a way to turn off the swearing...
I'm really not a fan and I don't want my Son hearing it when he's suppose to be sleeping.

Actually all the swearing is part of the story. I don't want to say anymore than that.

Also the HD version of this game should up the swear count with 2 more chapters, since I hear (MafiaII?) stole the record for most swears in a game.

So the Zombies are ran by the power of Swearing?

BlackNMild2k1May 27, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Quote from: Ceric

I'm guessing their isn't a way to turn off the swearing...
I'm really not a fan and I don't want my Son hearing it when he's suppose to be sleeping.

Actually all the swearing is part of the story. I don't want to say anymore than that.

Also the HD version of this game should up the swear count with 2 more chapters, since I hear (MafiaII?) stole the record for most swears in a game.

So the Zombies are ran by the power of Swearing?

No the Zombies are part of the action, the swearing is a part of the character part of the story. You'll know what I'm talking about as soon as you finish the game and not a moment sooner.

ShyGuyMay 27, 2011

Well it was certainly better than Dead Space Extraction

NinSageMay 27, 2011

You'll notice at no point did I mention sales because, if anything, the "jump ship to Wii" experiments have all proven one point: the games that originally get green-lit for Wii were never mainstream enough to "sell well."  In fact, the HD development costs will do more financial harm than good for the developers.

NMH - Wii - 400k (Japan)
NMH - PS3 - 400k (Japan)
NMH - 360 - 200k (Japan)

... not exactly the boom media outlets constantly predicted.

deBlob2 - Wii - 400k
deBlob2 - PS3 - 200k
deBlob2 - 360 - 200k

... yea! good move! now the HD investment losses can jeopardize the franchise!

NBA Jam - Wii - 250k
NBA Jam - PS3 - 110k
NBA Jam - 360 - 130k

... and this is the game where the Wii version was not only severely castrated but, if I'm not mistaken, more expensive!

So, sorry if I'm not seeing an Overkill 2 silver lining.  Just more fuel for the naysayers.  At least in this case, I don't see the HD investment to be costly at all.

~~~~~~~~~~

Regardless, I loved Overkill because I love HotD and enjoyed seeing SEGA flesh out the franchise.  But, I would muuuuuch rather see a console release of HotD4 or *gasp* HotD5 than ever see another entry in the Overkill series.  It was disappointing that my friends didn't want to play Overkill unless I turned the voices off!


BlackNMild2k1May 27, 2011

Sounds like you need new friends to me. ;)

None of mine complained :cool;

Mop it upMay 27, 2011

Yeah, the swearing and gratuitous violence probably limit the game's appeal, but with a name like Overkill it's what I was expecting. Still, there are a few people interested in light gun-style shooters who I would never want to show a game like this.

We never beat the game because both times we tried, the game froze on the end boss. I should hope the PS3 version gets bug-tested.

NinSageMay 27, 2011

Plus, let's not forget that my examples above were of games that did not require a separate peripheral.  That's going to cut the market for a PS3-release of this game even more.

Headstrong is pointing a light-gun straight at it's foot.



.... and then replacing that with a real gun and pulling the trigger. =P


But really, the bigger issue has nothing to do with business decisions, rather, as I said, is just further fuel for the fire of those who can't see why a good game would ever be on the Wii.

I'm sure Sega's not expecting this to sell gangbusters. I would hope they have a reasonable expectation for it.

Then again, this is Sega...

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

But really, the bigger issue has nothing to do with business decisions, rather, as I said, is just further fuel for the fire of those who can't see why a good game would ever be on the Wii.

I don't see that.  This is just companies trying to recoup some of their losses putting these games on Wii by releasing them on other platforms at a much less cost.  Most of the work is done already, so they mostly just have to swap out the textures for HD versions and optimize the game for the new platforms and accessories.  It's a sound business decision compared to dumping all that cash into making a new game in that franchise for the HD consoles, especially since Sony is likely subsidizing them to make Move-specific software these days.

Now, if Sega's smart...sorry, I really can't say that with a straight face these days  ;) ...they'll release this game download-only like EA did with Dead Space Extraction.  I don't see this game selling well at retail unless it's very much a budget game ($20-$30).

NinSageMay 27, 2011

@Neal

No one's talkin' gangbusters, mi amigo - just talking good or bad business decision.  Everyone assumes jumping ship from Wii is a good idea.  Don't the numbers I've provided tell a different story?

Also, I'm thinking 760k sold on the Wii was pretty darn "reasonable" for a game like Overkill. =)

Doesn't seem like a sequel is resting on anything but SEGA's whim.

@broodwars

From what I've read and heard, I'd be surprised if you did see that. =P

@Neal & broodwars

Let's not forget that if it was financially sound for every (3rd party) game to be on all platforms, then they would be.  In fact, by that logic, every third party game without an exclusivity deal would be on the Wii.  Just compress some textures, scale down the resolution, strip out the fancy lighting effects, decrease the draw-distance.  Bang.  Zero effort Wii port!

... I hope the absurdity of this example is not lost on anyone.


broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

@Neal & broodwars

Let's not forget that if it was financially sound for every (3rd party) game to be on all platforms, then they would be.  In fact, by that logic, every third party game without an exclusivity deal would be on the Wii.  Just compress some textures, scale down the resolution, strip out the fancy lighting effects, decrease the draw-distance.  Bang.  Zero effort Wii port!

... I hope the absurdity of this example is not lost on anyone.

You seem to assume that if companies put these games on Wii, they'd actually sell.  I think Wii 3rd party sales have shown that is not the case.  But be that as it may (and there are valid Pro-Wii arguments as to why that is), it's a lot more work to create a Wii version of an HD game than it is to take a Wii game and up-res it for PS3/360.  If you create a Wii version, you have to do the things you already stated as well as practically remaking all the building and character models with much lower poly versions to deal with the Wii's stone-age technology.  I'm sure that's acceptable if you have a Big Name game like Call of Duty or if you're going to make a PS2/PSP version anyway, but I don't know why you'd go through all that work and cost otherwise, especially when the Wii's practically dead right now anyway.  Oh yeah, and throw in Nintendo's Certification process for good measure...

On the flipside, as we saw with Dead Space Extraction and many of the HD re-releases of PS2 games, when you bring these standard definition Wii games into HD, you just swap out the textures and optimize performance and you have something you can sell for cheap on the download platforms in probably 6-8 months.  Now, if a company wants to get fancy (as those screenshots from Overkill seem to suggest, as well as what I've seen of No More Heroes HD), you can add more effects and whatnot to sweeten the deal, but the bare minimum it takes to have the game function on the platform is already dealt with and you're pretty much mostly re-using assets you already have rather than having to create new ones.

On reflection, actually, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw these HD re-releases on the Cafe as well once Nintendo releases the appropriate hardware with perhaps a quality download service.

BlackNMild2k1May 27, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

I'm sure Sega's not expecting this to sell gangbusters. I would hope they have a reasonable expectation for it.

Then again, this is Sega...

http://i.imgur.com/KBCVD.jpg
ONE MILLION COPIES!!!!

ShyGuyMay 27, 2011

The day I see Conduit HD for the PS3 or 360 is the day I dedicate my life to destroying Sega for good.

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: ShyGuy

The day I see Conduit HD for the PS3 or 360 is the day I dedicate my life to destroying Sega for good.

I'm honestly surprised that the first Conduit sold well enough to get a sequel (though knowing Sega, maybe it didn't and they were just insane).  I highly doubt a shooter that spectacularly generic would sell even a thousand copies on the HD platforms where the bar is significantly higher with the likes of Killzone, Gears of War, Resistance, etc. so I can't see Sega bringing that game to the HD consoles.  But then again, this is Sega so anything's possible and hey, Halo manages to sell despite how spectacularly generic I felt it was.  I'm a little surprised we haven't seen an announcement for an HD MadWorld considering Platinum Games is putting out Anarchy Reigns in the near future, which uses some MadWorld characters.

NinSageMay 27, 2011

@broodwars

1. In regards to the Wii sales thing, pay closer attention.  Numbers like the ones in this thread show that it is not the console that prevents big sales.  These games were simply too limited in appeal to get big numbers on ANY console.

Effort (no gimps!) + Mainstream (no spin-offs, no side stories) + Wii = sales

The one thing I will grant you is that a dude-bro shooter needs to be on PS3/60 for optimal sales because dude-bro gamers are allergic to standard def and motion controls.

2. I'm willing to bet you're a bit surprised we haven't seen Mario Kart PS360! Building off of that, shhhh...

broodwarsMay 27, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Effort (no gimps!) + Mainstream (no spin-offs, no side stories) + Wii = sales

And I suppose that explains why MadWorld; Zack & Wiki; Silent Hill: Shattered Memories; and both Conduits didn't set the sales charts on fire, then?  Sure, only 2 of those games were ever any good, but I've seen mediocre games sell well on the HD platforms so that's no excuse.

Quote:

The one thing I will grant you is that a dude-bro shooter needs to be on PS3/60 for optimal sales because dude-bro gamers are allergic to standard def and motion controls.

It has nothing to do with the style of the FPS and everything to do with the fact that the audience that likes FPS games isn't on the Wii and has played games with a traditional controller for years if not decades.  I prefer using a traditional controller for these games myself just because I don't want the slightest twitch of my wrist to screw up my aim, but if I were so inclined to use motion control I have my Wii and I have a Move.  From my experience, though, pointer control works much better for 3rd person shooters (see Resident Evil 4 Wii) and rail shooters than it does for FPS games, which is why I would be excited if Dead Space 2 got a Move patch yet I don't feel inclined to use my Move when playing Killzone 3.  It's also why I use my Classic Controller Pro if I feel like playing GoldenEye on Wii, but the Wii Remote + Nunchuk when playing Resident Evil 4 Wii.  I can just never get the camera how I like it in FPS games using pointer devices, and the way that the character's arm + gun moves so unnaturally in such games bugs me.

As for the "Standard Definition" comment, once you go HD you really can't go back to SD on an extremely technically-limited platform like the Wii unless the game's artistic design is really stylized, especially if you have a good HD TV like I have.

Quote:

2. I'm willing to bet you're a bit surprised we haven't seen Mario Kart PS360! Building off of that, shhhh...

No, that would be stupid considering Mario Kart is a 1st party Nintendo franchise and like most of Nintendo's 1st party software sells pretty well (it's the best-selling non-Wii Sports game IIRC).

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: NinSage

Effort (no gimps!) + Mainstream (no spin-offs, no side stories) + Wii = sales

And I suppose that explains why MadWorld; Zack & Wiki; Silent Hill: Shattered Memories; and both Conduits didn't set the sales charts on fire, then?  Sure, only 2 of those games were ever any good, but I've seen mediocre games sell well on the HD platforms so that's no excuse.

None of those except maybe Conduit are mainstream. I don't necessarily disagree with what you're arguing, and I will certainly agree that the third-party situation is a lot more complicated than some people here want to believe, but you picked bad examples to refute his point.

broodwarsMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: NinSage

Effort (no gimps!) + Mainstream (no spin-offs, no side stories) + Wii = sales

And I suppose that explains why MadWorld; Zack & Wiki; Silent Hill: Shattered Memories; and both Conduits didn't set the sales charts on fire, then?  Sure, only 2 of those games were ever any good, but I've seen mediocre games sell well on the HD platforms so that's no excuse.

None of those except maybe Conduit are mainstream. I don't necessarily disagree with what you're arguing, and I will certainly agree that the third-party situation is a lot more complicated than some people here want to believe, but you picked bad examples to refute his point.

Perhaps.  I would argue that MadWorld, along with both No More Heroes games, would be "mainstream games" by his definition (they are, after all, 3rd person exploitation brawlers ala God of War, Devil May Cry, Dante's Inferno, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, and Bayonetta).  There's also Goldeneye on Wii, which is a FPS (the current most mainstream genre in the U.S.) and none of these games sold all that well in the short-term, though Goldeneye probably sold the best of the bunch.  And the sad thing about Goldeneye, Zack & Wiki, and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories is that those 3 are excellent games for their respective genres that really deserved to sell much better.  Maybe Capcom and Activision will release HD versions of Goldeneye and Z&W at some point down the line (Konami's already forging ahead with Silent Hill: Downpour so Shattered Memories was in the rear-view mirror a long time ago).

Calling No More Heroes mainstream is ridiculous. If it's made by Suda 51, it's not mainstream, and I'm sure he'd be the first to argue that. Beyond that, I'm not sure I'd argue that any of the games you mentioned after God of War are mainstream. As for Goldeneye, like you said, it sold fairly well, and it probably would have sold even better if Activision hadn't released it in the same week as their own Call of Duty: Black Ops.

In the end, there's no reason we should be giving this as much discussion as we do. Companies as big as the publishers we're talking about don't make decisions out of spite; everything they do is designed to make the most amount of money. They don't believe making a Wii version is a worthwhile investment. A large part of that reasoning is their and others' experience on the platform, and part of that is due to mistakes, both on their part and Nintendo's.

All we can hope for at this point is that Nintendo learns from this, and makes future decisions with the intention of attracting more and better third party support, which, given what we've seen with the 3DS and the rumors of Cafe, it really looks like they have.

I don't want to get too embroiled with this, but let's lay out the facts:

- Overkill is a finished game that people seemed to enjoy.
- Move is a system similar to the Wii.
- The cost in porting Overkill to the Move is probably less than making a new game.

That's why Sega is doing this. Is it the greatest business decision ever made? No, but it's not a dumb one.

BlackNMild2k1May 28, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

I don't want to get too embroiled with this, but let's lay out the facts:

- Overkill is a finished game that people seemed to enjoy.
- Move is a system similar to the Wii.
- The cost in porting Overkill to the Move is probably less than making a new game.

That's why Sega is doing this. Is it the greatest business decision ever made? No, but it's not a dumb one.

Well, it could be a dumb one, but hopefully it 's not a costly one.

NinSageMay 28, 2011

I think perhaps a more specific explanation that might satisfy everyone (erm, almost everyone) is this:

It would have been better for third parties if the Wii was not such a radical departure from so many previous philosophies of game development.  Businesses try to minimize risk.

"This has better graphics than the last one" is a no-risk way to market a game.
"This has the same controls you've been comfy with for 10 years" is a no-risk way to sell a game.

Neither of those tried and true tactics could be applied to the Wii.  The Wii itself was a wild success on PS2-levels and developers had to change to take advantage of it.  But there was too much risk involved in that.  So, most of them just chose to play it safe.

The situation is compounded by the fact that with PS3/60 you could do minimal effort cross-platform releases once the initial investment was made.  Talk about minimizing risk! You've just doubled your sales potential!

With the Wii, however, it's like Mr. Miyagi once said:

Walk on road, hm? Walk left side (ignore Wii completely), safe. Walk right side (mainstream, full effort, Wii), safe. Walk middle (gimped, side-story), sooner or later? get squish just like grape.

Saying Madworld, No More Heroes and Zak&Wiki were mainstream? Sorry, but no.
Silent Hill: Shattered Memories? Great game? Maybe.  But see how it has a colon and a subtitle instead of a numeric digit? The defense rests.

As for GoldenEye, if 1.17 million units sold in the US and EU alone isn't a "success" in your mind? Then, you are simply beyond convincing!

broodwarsMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories? Great game? Maybe.  But see how it has a colon and a subtitle instead of a numeric digit? The defense rests.

Companies don't like to use numerical designations for long-running franchises anymore unless there's a legacy or prestige factor to it (Square-Enix).  Just staying within the Silent Hill franchise, after SH4 we had Origins, Homecoming, Shattered Memories, and soon we'll have Downpour as well (which formerly went by the title of "Silent Hill 8").  None of them use the numerical designation, and yet all are valid extensions of the Silent Hill franchise.  Should we call New Super Mario Bros. Wii a "sidestory" or "partial effort" (well, I might call it that but that's another story) because it's not called "Super Mario Bros. 5"?  How about any of the Legend of Zelda games past the 2nd NES title, which have all used subtitles and alternate names instead of numerical designations?  I could do this all day with Nintendo franchises.

Quote:

As for GoldenEye, if 1.17 million units sold in the US and EU alone isn't a "success" in your mind? Then, you are simply beyond convincing!

The last time I heard sales data on GoldenEye, it was when Invisible Walls reported the official NPD numbers for November 2010.  I believe GoldenEye was in the low 40s on the Top Selling software for that month, if not the low 60s.  I haven't seen any official sales numbers after that, which is why I noted "in the short term".  In the long-term, even Valkyria Chronicles was a successful game, but it wasn't a successful game quickly enough on PS3, so Sega moved the franchise to PSP.  Short-term profits matter when determining future software development.

I will agree with you, though, that the Wii was an extremely risky venture based on an extremely unreliable customer base (casual gamers).  Some companies took risks with the Wii and succeeded (Carnival Games, Resident Evil 4 Wii, Just Dance) and some companies took risks with the Wii and got burned (Zack & Wiki, Madworld, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories), which caused other companies to reconsider supporting the platform.  Eventually, the audience for those games just moved on, and we ended up where we are now with the platform.

Third parties played a significant role in their failure on the Wii, but if that's going to change next time around, Nintendo has to make the effort for it. Nintendo needs to make a system that third parties don't need to make compromises for, with hardware and features in line with what they're looking for. Expecting publishers to put in the extra effort got the Wii the support it's had. Everything we've seen recently indicates that Nintendo understands this, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

NinSageMay 28, 2011

@ broodwars

Yea, only Squeenix numbers their mainstream games.  *cough*SF4, RE5, MW3, ME2, Portal2, Bioshock2, Conduit2, Fallout3, Killzone3, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

As for comparing Nintendo's apples to these oranges, if I need to spell things out even more, you can call it whatever you like, but let's just boil the concept down to "flagship" titles.  NSMBWii was a flagship title, SMG2 was a flagship title.  Zelda's flagship titles are fairly obvious.  If you can't figure things out beyond that, I can't help you.

RE: GoldenEye, "Then, you are simply beyond convincing!" Moving on...

RE: Your proclomation that the Wii's audience is just a bunch of casual gamers who have "moved on" - yea, I'm sure that's why Epic Yarn topped 1 million, why DKCR topped 4 million.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with game quality and mainstream appeal ...

I really try to avoid being rude in my discussions.  But it seems you're just set in the idea that the Wii was purchased by nothing but soccer moms who haven't touched it since Wii Fit Plus, because, well, that was the last game released on the platform, right? =P

Again, "simply beyond convincing"

@ Insanolord

Yup.

It's just a shame that thinking outside the box qualified as a "compromise" for most third parties =P


When looking at sales for Wii games, you really can't lump Nintendo's own software in with third party titles. Nintendo games have never had a problem selling (in general; there are of course exceptions to that). Hell, with DKCR, 4 million could be seen as disappointing. The audience is still there for Nintendo titles, just not for anything other than that (again, a few exceptions, but not many, and certainly nothing you can count on from a publisher's point of view).

And Nintendo could have done everything they did with the Wii, except with hardware specs that would allow porting from the 360/PS3 without too much effort, and gotten as good third party support as anyone this generation. Same controller, same interface quirks, same lousy online system, and still had at least as good third party support as Sony.

broodwarsMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

@ broodwars

Yea, only Squeenix numbers their mainstream games.  *cough*SF4, RE5, MW3, ME2, Portal2, Bioshock2, Conduit2, Fallout3, Killzone3, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

I clearly said "long-running franchises", and most of the series you named (Portal, Mass Effect, Conduit, Killzone, Modern Warfare) are at most 3 console games in and started this generation (Modern Warfare doesn't even use the correct numbering scheme, because Modern Warfare is the new branding).  Most companies don't use numerical designations outside of Square-Enix and Capcom (let's not forget the huge number of Megaman games there).

Quote:

As for comparing Nintendo's apples to these oranges, if I need to spell things out even more, you can call it whatever you like, but let's just boil the concept down to "flagship" titles.  NSMBWii was a flagship title, SMG2 was a flagship title.  Zelda's flagship titles are fairly obvious.  If you can't figure things out beyond that, I can't help you.

I was using the same rules you were: if it's a long-running franchise, apparently the game is only considered a "full mainstream effort" if the title has a number after it instead of "a subtitle or colon".  Don't blame me that it's so easy to turn your own logic against you.  If you can't call something like Shattered Memories a "real game" in the Silent Hill franchise because the title uses a subtitle instead of calling it "Silent Hill 6", then I can call most Nintendo games "sidestories" or "not full efforts".  Yeah, doesn't make much sense, does it?  So let's just agree that a game's what it is due to actual design elements in the game itself, and that the title is incidental.

Quote:

RE: Your proclomation that the Wii's audience is just a bunch of casual gamers who have "moved on" - yea, I'm sure that's why Epic Yarn topped 1 million, why DKCR topped 4 million.

It is undeniable fact that the Wii audience is largely casual.  If it wasn't, the Wii's userbase wouldn't be that much larger than the PS3's or 360's and the system wouldn't have sold what it has far beyond its competitors.  Also, Nintendo wouldn't have put such a large marketing and development push this generation into capturing that demographic.  Now, the more core users like us have stuck around (though I have all the consoles now), but you only have to look at the console and software sales for the other two platforms to see that the core users likely moved on and purchased 1 or more of the competing consoles to fill in the gaping holes in the Wii's library.

Now, as others have previously stated, this argument has gone on more than long enough.  The points have been made, and I have more interesting things to do with my time than argue around in circles with you.  You believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I'll believe.  Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it.

NinSageMay 28, 2011

@ Insanolord

Right, so, Nintendo games don't sell because they make good products, but because these casual gamers who apparently don't pay any attention wake up on the morning a new 1st party title is released and say "I should go to the local GameStore and give them money!"

Yea, Nintendo could have beefed up the horsepower.  But then it wouldn't have been as affordable.  It would have experienced the same price barriers the PS3/60 have experienced.

In other words, please don't be one of the people who criticizes Nintendo for making games and hardware that resonated with the audience this generation.

Plus, do we really need a world with three consoles from the same mold?

Under this model, gamers made out great, Nintendo made out great, and third parties with guts made out great too.  I just don't see why so many gamers and journalists are all gloom and doom 24/7.

Plus, please keep in mind, in no way am I trying to say that Nintendo is "better" than the competition.  Or that anyone should feel that way.  I happen to enjoy them more at the moment, but my primary motivation is simply to get everyone using the same standards.  And for a while now, Nintendo is definitely held to a different, somewhat impossible, standard.

But that's the price paid for being "different," right? That's a shame.

@ broodwars

Yea, I think I already said I couldn't help you and moved on ^_^

I believe you're misreading what I said. Nintendo's software lineup on the Wii is phenomenal, and is in and of itself completely worth buying the console for. My point was that you can't point to Nintendo's first-party lineup as proof that good third-party games will sell well.

And given the tech of the time, I'm pretty sure Nintendo could have built a machine like I described and sold it for a modest profit for $299. If Nintendo could go back and do it over knowing what they know today, I'm sure they'd do that..

ShyGuyMay 28, 2011

NinSage is my favorite new poster.

NinSageMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

I believe you're misreading what I said. Nintendo's software lineup on the Wii is phenomenal, and is in and of itself completely worth buying the console for. My point was that you can't point to Nintendo's first-party lineup as proof that good third-party games will sell well.

You're right! I did misunderstand you! I thought you were trying to say... that other thing.

OK, so 1st party sells because it is good.  We've discussed the success of several third party titles that gave us flagship quality games.  So, I ask, what leads you to believe the deciding factor between success and failure on the Wii is anything but quality mainstream experiences?

Keep in mind, to those who enjoy simulating dance with a remote control, a game like Just Dance is the pinnacle of quality.  Just as, for so many years, the Guitar Band franchises held a value for people who enjoyed simulating music with plastic toys.

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

And given the tech of the time, I'm pretty sure Nintendo could have built a machine like I described and sold it for a modest profit for $299. If Nintendo could go back and do it over knowing what they know today, I'm sure they'd do that..


Well, if you're going to use your powers of space/time mind-reading then I guess I just can't provide an adequate counter =P

But, my personal belief is still that Nintendo did what was right at the time.  Both for themselves, and for gamers.  You don't have to agree with that!

Quote from: ShyGuy

NinSage is my favorite new poster.

Hey, thanks buddy! I just call 'em as I see 'em.

~

On a somewhat related note: my first down vote! NOOOO!!!

Quote from: ShyGuy

NinSage is my favorite new poster.

I kind of echo this. I might not agree with you, but I enjoy arguing with you/seeing other people arguing with you.

Mop it upMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

And given the tech of the time, I'm pretty sure Nintendo could have built a machine like I described and sold it for a modest profit for $299. If Nintendo could go back and do it over knowing what they know today, I'm sure they'd do that..

I don't think they even had to go that far, though. From what I can tell, even when the Wii launched there was quite a markup on it. So Nintendo could have added in things like more RAM and more internal storage without raising the manufacturing costs very much, and still make a nice profit at the $250 price point. At the very least, WiiWare wouldn't face the issues it currently has, though from what I can tell the system has a puny amount of RAM for what its other components are capable of. I agree with their philosophy of affordable gaming but they cheaped out more than they had to with the Wii hardware, and I will always be critical of it when the topic comes up. But at the end of the day, it still has the games I want to play.

NinSageMay 28, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Quote from: ShyGuy

NinSage is my favorite new poster.

I kind of echo this. I might not agree with you, but I enjoy arguing with you/seeing other people arguing with you.

I coined a little phrase for myself several years ago when I started getting involved in video game message boards ... *ahem* ... "It's not about agreeing all the time.  It's about understanding that opinions can differ."  ^_^

Quote from: Mop

But at the end of the day, it still has the games I want to play.

Huzzah!

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: Mop

But at the end of the day, it still has the games I want to play.

Huzzah!

I'll agree with this. I own all three consoles, and each one has great things I wouldn't want to be without, but the Wii definitely has the most of those.

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