During a casual conversation over AIM about unlocking content in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, NWR Previews Editor Mike Gamin and Director Steven Rodriguez suddenly found themselves getting caught up in a debate thought to be long put to rest: Is the use of the C-Stick on the GameCube controller (or right analog stick on the Wii Classic controller) to perform smash attacks in the Smash Bros. series "cheap?"

Mike sure thought so, bringing up the subject out of left field and sparking a debate that spanned almost an hour. Steven insisted that it's a part of the game whether Mike liked it or not, and Mike kept going on about how its inclusion takes away a layer of strategy from the game. The discussion included references to basketball, politics, girlfriends, Mario Kart, and a whole lot of other random analogies.

The entire debate follows, edited only for spelling errors and formatted for better readability. Is Mike right about his beliefs? Does Steven make his point? Is this whole debate a waste of time? Read the squabbling below, and then leave your comments in the Talkback thread for this feature.

Mike Gamin: oh man is the mario bros stage in this event match an actual stage? it's awesome

Steven Rodriguez: hah, yep

Mike G: and the music is awesome

Steven: How many tracks have you unlocked

Mike G: i don't even know

Mike G: also, i switched to the gamecube controller today

Mike G: much better

Steven: of course it is

Steven: Turn off up jumping for improved results

Mike G: already did

Mike G: (and the cheat stick)

Mike G: not that it matters to everyone else playing

Steven: Can you turn that off?

Mike G: i made it something different

Steven: okay

Steven: Although I don't see why people refer to it as a cheat stick

Steven: Ya know, when IT IS A DESIGNED PART OF THE CONTROL SCHEME

Steven: yeesh

Mike G: because newbie people can just rotate it like crazy

Steven: And leave themselves open for easy counterattacks when faced against people who know what they're doing

Mike G: not when it's a 4 player match and most experienced people want to leave them alone in the beginning

Mike G: but then the cheat stick gets them an easy kill

Steven: Oh, okay, so when a newb does it, it's an easy kill via the cheat stick

Steven: But if anyone else does it, it's not

Steven: Yeah, sure thing

Mike G: ?

Mike G: i don't get you

Mike G: smash attacks take rhythm

Mike G: the only thing in the game that really does

Mike G: they shouldn't come so cheaply

Steven: You're lumping everyone who uses the C-Stick into a group of people who "use the cheat stick"

Steven: Why is it even in the game at all, if it's so cheap?

Mike G: because the developers of melee made one mistake

Steven: A mistake that could have been corrected if it really was one

Steven: And "the developers of Melee" is Sakurai

Mike G: but that would be admitting they were wrong

Steven: Who, I've been told, is the developer of Brawl

Steven: lol

Steven: Or maybe, you need to admit you're wrong?

Steven: Why is it always their fault, their mistake?

Steven: I believe they've made it possible to turn off up-jumping (a mistake in Melee, you could say)

Steven: And being able to customize all controls

Mike G: you couldn't do smash attacks when you first started playing melee could you

Steven: Uh

Mike G: you RELIED on the c-stick as a CRUTCH

Mike G: i can see through it

Steven: I did them just fine in the N64 game thanks

Steven: I'm just saying there are times when it's handy to have a quick, not-as-powerful smash

Mike G: uh huh

Steven: And

Mike G: sure

Steven: To attack behind me while in the air without changing direction

Mike G: cheap

Steven: lol

Mike G: you can do that anyway

Steven: My points are a lot more valid than yours are

Mike G: just tip the joystick that way

Mike G: it's not like it changes your direction that much

Steven: What if I don't want to change direction at all

Mike G: if your point is to take clever nuances that made the game a challenge away, that is a lame point

Steven: Ha

Steven: "Take the challenge away"

Steven: I believe dealing with newbies who get "cheap" kills, as you put it, provides more challenge than getting a weaker smash attack off a few milliseconds early

Mike G: that was just one reason

Steven: The challenge of the game is to beat your opponents using the tools available to you

Steven: If you don't want to use the tools available to you

Mike G: why don't they just add a "kill your opponent" button?

Mike G: that'd be better right?

Steven: Let me get something for you

Steven: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34747

Steven: There is no such thing is "cheap"

Steven: If you refuse to use tactics that are "cheap" you are only fooling yourself

Mike G: tl;dr

Steven: If something is so "cheap" to render a game unplayable

Steven: Why would you play the game?

Steven: A win button would be cheap

Steven: But it would also make the game terrible

Steven: And no one would play it

Steven: So if C-Stick smashing is so cheap

Steven: Why are you still playing Smash Bros?

Mike G: it removes a layer of depth from the fighting system

Mike G: = bad

Steven: In who's opinion?

Mike G: because i don't have to use it

Mike G: and i can endlessly harass people who do

Mike G: that's why i still play brawl

Steven: Oh, okay

Steven: So if I play you

Steven: And I keep winning because I use C-Stick smashes on occasion

Steven: What would you say?

Mike G: well there's the flaw in your argument

Mike G: you won't keep winning

Mike G: so what i would say is, "See I can still beat you even though you are a C-Stick lamer"

Steven: Once out of... 8 times, was it?[referring back to a set of matches played against each other online]

Mike G: hah

Mike G: i was using wonky controls with a game that is slightly different from melee with a character I've never played as

Steven: heh, true

Steven: But here's my point

Steven: I don't rely on C-Stick smashing

Steven: Anyone who knows how to play the game properly doesn't, either

Steven: But it's a handy tool to have in a pinch

Mike G: my point is, i agree with your first point

Mike G: but you should use other skills to get out of a pinch

Steven: Okay smart guy

Steven: I've been playing the game as long as you have

Steven: I have skills

Steven: I also have knowhow

Steven: If I see someone with high damage coming at me

Steven: And I have just enough time to throw out a quick smash, knowing it would KO them

Steven: Tell me

Mike G: you should quickly execute a normal smash

Steven: Why wouldn't I do it?

Mike G: it can be done

Steven: QUICK SMASHES COME OUT FASTER

Steven: They do

Steven: That is why they are called that

Mike G: right, and they remove the timing element from the game, thus cheapening it

Steven: They are also weaker by design

Steven: You buffoon

Steven: instant is a timing too

Mike G: they are no weaker than a standard smash if you don't charge it at all

Steven: Okay

Mike G: if you want instant you can use one of the much weaker truly instant moves

Steven: So what's the difference between Up + A and C-Up, if that's true

Steven: If they are just as powerful and come out just as fast

Mike G: there is no reason for a smash attack to be able to be executed at the same speed as a weak punch

Steven: uhhhh

Steven: Weak punches come out way faster

Mike G: some do

Steven: The point is if you miss a smash, you are penalized with delay

Steven: And if someone sees it coming, it's easy to avoid it

Mike G: when you first played 64

Steven: Sakurai even talked about that at his GDC session

Mike G: and you started punching and everything

Steven: Referring to Brawl

Mike G: and then you finally got the rhythm down to do a smash attack regularly

Mike G: wasn't that a good feeling?

Steven: Uh, yeah

Mike G: that feeling if you started with melee

Mike G: GONE

Steven: And it's good feeling today

Mike G: cause you could have just cheated with it

Steven: lol

Steven: "could"

Steven: "cheated"

Steven: Define cheating

Mike G: cheating is something that is done that shouldn't be done in the normal rules of the game.... the thing is, in every game, rules are opinion

Mike G: it is of my opinion that c smashing cheapens the gameplay and should not be allowed

Mike G: so i can call it cheating

Steven: Okay, that's a big stretch and you know it

Mike G: say you are playing basketball right

Steven: And also, C-Stick smashing is in the normal rules of the game

Steven: So there goes your argument right there

Mike G: and the other team has a 7 foot 8 guy

Mike G: everyone on your team is below 6 feet

Mike G: therefore, all the other team has to do is lob the ball to the 7 foot 8 guy and have him dunk it

Mike G: that isn't against the rules of basketball

Mike G: but for the good of YOUR game at that MOMENT, wouldn't it be better if he didn't play?

Steven: Sure

Steven: But that's irrelevant to the topic

Mike G: no

Steven: Since we're not talking about the teams playing

Steven: We're talking about the game

Mike G: in my opinion if people don't c-stick

Mike G: it makes for a better game

Mike G: therefore i should be able to lobby against it

Steven: To which each team has five players, each team has a hoop 10 feet high, each team gets two points for a regular field goal

Steven: There's also a three-point line

Steven: But if you think, "Gee, I think getting an extra point for a basket is cheap!" and choose not to do it

Steven: What right do you have to call the other team cheaters if they sink 3s left and right?

Mike G: right, if i felt that in a game of basketball, three pointers were infinitely easier than 2 pointers

Mike G: i wouldn't want to play with them

Mike G: but they AREN'T

Steven: To some people

Steven: They are

Mike G: no

Steven: That is why you have superstars in the NBA

Mike G: here's a better analogy

Steven: That is why you have better smash players than others

Mike G: say the nba, next year

Mike G: they decided that a zone from within 5 feet of the basket would ALSO be a three point zone

Mike G: that's what the c-stick is

Steven: Players will stop playing the game, fans will stop watching it, attendance and ratings would plummet, the NBA would wane in popularity and the rule would be changed immediately to fix the problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place

Steven: You state that the C-Stick was a problem to begin with

Steven: It is apparently not, according to the game's designer and the amount of people that will buy the game and use the C-Stick

Mike G: that's not necessarily true

Mike G: if dunks become worth 3 points then it would promote dunkers

Mike G: which could excite the game

Mike G: and make fans want to watch

Steven: lol

Steven: Slamball

Mike G: but all those people that shot normal threes would be sad

Mike G: so consider me one of those people that shoots normal 3s

Steven: Mike, they tried that and it didn't work

Steven: As are your analogies