Steven: I'm not claiming that you need to shut up

Steven: I'm saying that calling C-Stick smashes as "cheap" are certainly not

Steven: Because you can't define something that is based on personal preference

Mike G: but in this case, i believe that the majority doesn't care because they've never really thought about it or experienced it the way i think it should be done

Mike G: because the damn c-stick has been in every game

Steven: The way it should be done

Steven: or the way that it is

Steven: If you don't like the way that it is, it's within your right to do something else

Mike G: take soul calibur 2 for example

Steven: But you don't have a right to change the way how other people view the way that it is

Mike G: now it's not possible to create a c-stick scenario, because there aren't enough buttons on the controller

Mike G: but in that game there are a ton of combo attacks that are new and different from any standard attack

Steven: Since it's their own preferences that determine whether or not they like something the way that it is

Mike G: discovering them makes the game fun

Mike G: i thought smash attacks were like that

Mike G: the c-stick made them not

Steven: I've got another link to rebutt that

Mike G: man, i totally have to go to bed

Mike G: this has been fun though

Steven: http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/12/opinion-why-str.html

Steven: The key point:

Steven: But having thought about it, I feel like I was having fun with Virtua Fighter 5 in spite of the game design, not because of it. Thinking back to playing Street Fighter II Turbo online on Xbox Live Arcade, it was just as challenging but much more fun, because I had a much more intuitive handle on what my options were.

Steven: "in spite of the game design"

Mike G: right

Steven: All the people who bought SCII for the GameCube did so because they could play as Link

Mike G: but i don't think going completely the other way is the solution either

Mike G: smash is mostly an easy game to get

Steven: Not because they wanted to discover new combos

Mike G: one button for special attacks

Mike G: one button for normal attacks

Steven: one button for smash attacks

Mike G: directional attacks and smash attacks just give it that flare

Mike G: that made it what it is today

Steven: Yes

Mike G: it would never have been so successful if there wasn't that little bit of depth there

Steven: Uh-huh

Steven: So what does that have to do with C-sticking being cheap to you

Mike G: it just took a slice of that depth away

Steven: To you

Mike G: and i think that was a bad decision, they shouldn't have been scared of it

Mike G: well i could say "to you" after all of your arguments too

Mike G: that's not a rebuttal

Steven: Let me point out something to you

Steven: You choose not to use C-Stick smashing at all

Steven: You say that a slice of the game's depth is missing

Steven: In other words, you're saying you think a slice of the game's depth is missing because you believe that C-Sticking is in the game and you choose not to use it

Steven: So how about this

Steven: Maybe if you started using the one thing you haven't used, you'll get that one thing that's missing out of the game

Mike G: that doesn't make any sense.. i don't think anything's missing

Mike G: i don't want to change how i play

Mike G: i love how i play

Steven: [quoting one of Mike's previous statements] Mike G: it just took a slice of that depth away

Mike G: right it did

Mike G: and i like depth

Steven: So something's missing

Mike G: so i won't let them take it from me

Mike G: if i don't use the c-stick i never lost it

Steven: You just said something was missing, implying that it has already been taking away

Mike G: my main argument is that in the long run, the game is more rewarding for the player without it in there

Steven: More rewarding for you, the guy who says something is missing from the game

Steven: Someone who doesn't use one of the game's built-in tools

Mike G: you aren't making any sense now

Steven: Have you ever thought that using the C-Stick might actually be viable considering you're not a newb anymore?

Mike G: part of the depth is missing for those that use the c-stick

Mike G: nothing is missing for those that don't

Steven: I don't think so

Steven: If you asked random Smash Bros owners, would they say that?

Mike G: some would, some wouldn't

Steven: Most wouldn't

Mike G: and those that wouldn't i would try and convince that they should give not using it a try

Mike G: because it makes the use of a smash attack more rewarding as far as your skill as a player is concerned

Steven: Why should they listen?

Steven: In your opinion

Mike G: maybe because they listen to me and want to give it a try?

Mike G: maybe they've never done a really smash attack?

Steven: ahahahaha

Mike G: because the c-stick blinded them to it

Mike G: that happens all the time with newer players

Mike G: especially casual ones that only play at a friends house

Steven: And they learn how to do smash attacks

Steven: And they realize that regular smash attacks are better in most circumstances

Mike G: right but in the wrong order

Mike G: they already did them

Mike G: and then they learn how to do them right

Steven: They learn how to do them

Steven: Why is there a right or wrong?

Mike G: because by the nature of what they are, they should be harder to do than a normal attack

Steven: Up+A

Steven: Up+B

Steven: Uhhhhhh

Steven: Harder?

Steven: More like different

Mike G: you have to slam the stick in the direction and then slightly after the stick hits the point, push the button

Mike G: just holding up and a does not yield a smash attack

Mike G: plus by the very nature of the c-stick's position

Steven: Might I point out to you that in the Wii Remote method for Brawl

Mike G: it essentially deprecates normal attacks for rookie players

Steven: The one that uses the D-Pad for movement

Steven: The controller that is meant for the person that doesn't know what they are doing

Mike G: it has a c-stick like approach

Mike G: which is equally lame

Steven: A smash attack is three buttons

Steven: Direction+1+2

Steven: Anyone can hit buttons at the same time

Mike G: right but the rhythm of pushing the direction isn't there

Steven: What does it matter?

Steven: The point is that anyone regardless of skill can execute the basic smash attack

Steven: Which does not make it cheap

Mike G: right, and why should the unskilled people use any other attack?

Mike G: hence, it cheapens the experience

Steven: Because if someone just uses smash attacks over and over again, they become predictable and easily beatable

Steven: Duh

Steven: To me, it sounds like you're just complaining because you can't overcome that obvious truth

Steven: So instead of getting better to deal with people that "randomly" C-Stick smash you

Steven: You just call it cheap to justify it

Mike G: sounds like you want this to be a black and white argument when it's not

Steven: Because it "couldn't have been your fault

Mike G: just because it's in there doesn't make it the best decision

Steven: This is not a black/white argument

Steven: This argument is based around the thought that the way you think the game should be

Steven: Should be the way everyone else should play it

Mike G: your entire basis is that because it made it in to brawl, it proves its ok

Mike G: that's silly

Steven: When the game was clearly designed for it to be the way that it is

Mike G: that is false right there

Mike G: the first smash, the smash who's popularity begot all other smash games, didn't have it

Mike G: therefore it is not an integral part

Mike G: of the mechanic

Steven: heh

Steven: So the Smash Ball is cheap, then?

Mike G: no

Steven: Wasn't in the original game!

Steven: Must not be an integral part!

Mike G: but for the same reason you are claiming that some new additions are good

Mike G: i can claim that others are bad

Steven: I'm not saying it's good or bad

Steven: I'm saying it's in there

Steven: Whether you like it or not

Mike G: but why aren't i allowed to wish it wasn't?

Steven: I'm not saying you can't

Steven: I'm saying you can't tell other people what to think of it

Steven: Just because you think the way you do

Steven: And

Steven: "cheap" does not exist

Steven: It is something made up to justify someone's beliefs about something

Steven: If something was "cheap" enough to be a true detriment to gameplay, no one would want to play the game

Mike G: that's false too

Mike G: something can be cheap but the overall game good enough that people still tolerate it

Mike G: hence my position

Steven: You assume that C-sticking is something that people need to tolerate in the first place

Mike G: i have to tolerate it

Mike G: i am a person

Steven: Yet you make a statement for "people"

Steven: You cannot do that

Mike G: what are you doing right now?

Mike G: i'm sorry

Mike G: i thought it was making a statement that people don't care?

Steven: I'm telling you what's in the game

Steven: I'm explaining to you why things are not cheap

Mike G: my statement is that most people don't know that they care

Mike G: and by that i mean, i think i can show them a better way to play

Steven: The truth is most people don't care that they know

Steven: or don't know rather

Steven: You have your way to play the game, that's fine

Mike G: it doesn't change the fact that I could show them a better way... for example, if i'm teaching one to play smash i won't even tell them about the c-stick

Steven: You think the game is a little worse off because of the game design choices, that's fine

Mike G: because them learning an actual smash is more rewarding

Steven: But you don't need to tell other people how to play the game their own way

Mike G: in fact, my fiancée is a perfect example

Steven: That would be like me telling you how to play the game the "right" way

Mike G: she never played 64

Mike G: she started on melee

Mike G: i told her about the c-stick but explained that you can do more and it takes more skill to do them the normal way

Mike G: she learned

Mike G: and she is in my camp completely

Mike G: she never touches the stick

Steven: Good for her

Mike G: oh but she doesn't represent the people either

Steven: That doesn't mean she can't go back to it if she understands the situations in which it's better to use it

Mike G: I'm sorry, i forgot

Steven: She doesn't need anyone to tell her how to play the game her own way

Steven: Not you

Steven: Not me

Steven: Not no one

Mike G: she loves the game now

Mike G: and i told her how i think she should play

Mike G: and she still plays the same way

Mike G: how is that a bad thing?

Steven: It's not

Steven: But are you going to babysit her, making sure she doesn't touch the c-stick?

Mike G: i don't have to

Mike G: it's more of an honesty and pride thing than something I'd ever want to police

Mike G: I'm not going to call someone a cheater (unless I'm just ragging on them) if they use it

Mike G: but i am going to say things like "that would have been infinitely more impressive if you pulled it off with a normal smash"

Steven: hah

Steven: How are you going to know the difference, if a regular smash and a c-stick smash are the same?

Mike G: it's not a question of me knowing the difference

Mike G: i can't right now

Mike G: and that's why the c-stick sucks

Mike G: if it wasn't there they would always be real smashes

Steven: LOL

Steven: are you kidding me

Steven: "real" smashes

Mike G: i totally have to go to bed

Steven: A smash is a smash

Mike G: no

Mike G: one is done with the c-stick

Steven: Doesn't matter if you Up and A it, C-Stick it, D-pad and 1+2 it

Mike G: and one is done how they were originally designed

Mike G: I'm tempted to call the original one the "real" one

Steven: They are all done as they are designed

Mike G: sorry

Steven: originally has nothing to do with it

Mike G: conceived would have been a better term

Mike G: and I'm not claiming that that fact alone makes them better

Steven: How else are you going to do it on an N64 controller?

Mike G: I'm claiming that the original system (as far as they are concerned) was better and thats what i wish remained

Steven: Of course C-Stick smashes didn't exist back then!

Steven: Then go back to playing the N64 game

Mike G: well then they just got lucky and made a better decision

Steven: If you wish it *that* badly

Mike G: so i should be thanking the n64 controller not the original designers

Mike G: alright, I'm going to bed

Steven: heh, fine

Mike G: i have to be to work in 7.5 hours

Mike G: go cheat at smash some more

Mike G: you cheater

Steven: One of these days you'll understand

Mike G: heh, doubtful

Mike G: see ya

Steven: k

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