Steven: You continue to insist that C-stick smashes are some kind of plague to good players

Mike G: no

Mike G: not at all

Mike G: i'm merely saying that the game would be better if they had never been added

Steven: How do you know that

Mike G: because i've played a lot of games

Steven: So have I

Mike G: and I've played melee for hundreds and hundreds of hours not using it

Mike G: against people who don't use it

Mike G: and it's more fun than a random person jumping in and twirling the stick

Mike G: I'll also admit

Mike G: that playing against skilled players who use it, works fine for the most part

Mike G: i don't usually have a problem with it

Mike G: but that doesn't make it ok

Steven: It certainly doesn't make it alright to flat-out call it a "cheat stick"

Steven: And whether or not it's okay doesn't change the fact that it's in there

Steven: And has been for two games of the series now

Mike G: it's alright if you are trying to insight a blaring argument

Steven: Let me put it this way

Mike G: windy = cheater

Mike G: nuff said

Steven: If you're so adamant about "newbies" being able to use the "cheat stick" to score "easy kills"

Mike G: here, let me explain the situation

Mike G: you have 3 friends come over

Steven: How else are newbies going to be able to jump in and have a fighting chance if bullies like you pound them into submission?

Mike G: 2 of them are huge smash players

Mike G: the third has never played before

Mike G: you jump into a battle, all three of you silently decide to leave the newbie alone, as you don't want to make him hate the game because he can't compete

Mike G: you are then having a heated battle with the other three

Steven: stop right there

Steven: You know that's impossible in Smash Bros

Steven: And you know exactly why The C-Stick smash is in the game

Mike G: all the sudden the newbie discovers the c stick

Mike G: flails it about

Mike G: and you happen to get hit into them

Mike G: giving them a random kill and taking one of your stock / points

Steven: Okay, consider this

Steven: You say that the game would be better without C-Stick smashing, right?

Mike G: yep

Steven: Better for who?

Mike G: it will be a more rewarding experience for players that commit to it

Mike G: AND it will encourage new players to actually learn the game

Mike G: instead of relying on the c-stick as a crutch...

Mike G: and when their friends say "you can do a smash like this"

Mike G: they say "why should I?"

Steven: Have we already determined that skilled players don't rely on the C-Stick?

Steven: That it makes more sense to use regular smashes in normal gameplay>

Mike G: yes, but my main argument is it destroys an otherwise ingenious layer to a seemingly simple battle system

Steven: Destroys it FOR WHOM?

Steven: For you?

Mike G: for new players

Mike G: it destroys the smash experience

Mike G: of growing into the system

Mike G: it cheapens it

Mike G: it's like if there was a single button to do special moves in street fighter

Steven: You're totally missing the point

Steven: New players wouldn't be able to understand or learn how to get to the finer points of the battle system without some help

Steven: You say that "players that commit to the system" would get the best experience

Steven: Well guess what

Steven: Not everyone will commit to it if there's a steep learning curve

Mike G: that was the beauty of smash bros though

Steven: That is why traditional competitive fighters have such a niche audience

Mike G: there was only ONE aspect that was a little deeper

Mike G: and that was smash attacks

Mike G: in 64, you could look right away and see the experienced people from the inexperienced

Steven: A C-Stick Smash and a regular smash come out at the same quick speed, according to you

Mike G: and the inexperienced would see the moves and be like "damn, how'd you do that?"

Steven: So what's the difference between the two

Mike G: and then you'd teach them

Steven: In the "layer" of the system you are referring to?

Mike G: the difference between the two is that in order to execute a standard smash at the quickest speed you still need to have the rhythm of using the stick and the button properly

Steven: Rhythm

Steven: Or skill?

Mike G: one and the same

Steven: Okay

Steven: So why handicap new players

Steven: Why give an advantage to the more skilled players

Mike G: the same reason a blue turtle shell sucks in mario kart

Mike G: because they deserve it

Mike G: that's what makes a game a competition

Steven: Good players appreciate playing under the circumstances the game presents them with

Steven: In Mario Kart, you know having a big lead means you'll get a blue turtle shell heading your way

Steven: So what's the best way to avoid it?

Mike G: so do you just love getting blue shelled by the 8th place scrub while the second place person, a friend of yours who you are extremely competitive with takes the win?

Steven: Get a huge lead and take your hit like a man

Steven: If I know a blue shell is coming

Steven: And I want to win

Steven: I make sure I hang close enough to second place so either he takes the force of it or I take him out with me

Steven: Because I understand the rules of the game I'm playing

Steven: And then adapt

Mike G: oh so now racing you aren't supposed to go as fast as you can?

Steven: I am not playing a racing game

Mike G: that's lame too

Mike G: that's why super mario kart is the best mario kart

Steven: That's what Gran Turismo 4 is for

Steven: If I just want to play a game where I go fast and don't need to worry about random things screwing me up, I play GT4

Mike G: but see

Steven: If I want to play Mario Kart and play by the Mario Kart rules, I play Mario Kart

Mike G: super mario kart was all about going as fast as you can and using your weapons well

Steven: It was

Steven: It is the best Mario Kart

Mike G: the only 8th place weapon in super mario kart was a lightning bolt

Steven: But you could only play it with two players, couldn't you?

Mike G: that automatically affected everyone else

Mike G: that's good

Mike G: blue shells, not good

Steven: Would applying the same Super Mario Kart formula to the 16-player Double Dash been fair for everyone?

Mike G: rubber banding is another lame move similar to the c-stick

Mike G: forced competitiveness of rookies is lame

Mike G: in super mario kart i could lap the field

Mike G: yes it would have been

Steven: So could I, duh

Mike G: because like any competition

Mike G: the worse players shouldn't be focused on first

Mike G: they should be focused on doing better than they did last time

Mike G: so to jump back to smash

Steven: The point of any competition is to be first

Steven: If you have no chance of winning

Mike G: a rookie combatant shouldn't be happy c-sticking to victory

Steven: What's the point of playing?

Steven: You idiot

Steven: They're just happy they won

Mike G: they should be happy losing but having pulled off one real smash attack

Mike G: because it means they are getting better

Steven: The better someone gets in Smash Bros

Steven: The more they realize that just randomly C-Smashing isn't going to help them out

Steven: Right?

Mike G: yes, but learning the actual smash attack is the first step towards finer techniques

Steven: Yes

Mike G: having the c-stick makes rookies resistant to learning it

Mike G: because they question why they should

Steven: So how are people going to get to that point without learning how not to do it first?

Steven: By losing over and over and over again?

Mike G: they ask their more skilled playing partners how they did it

Mike G: they go into sparring mode and practice

Mike G: the same way you and i learned it in 64

Steven: You assume that there's always someone good playing the game

Steven: With not-as-good players

Mike G: well if only rookies are playing

Steven: I doubt 5 million people were as good as Melee as we were

Mike G: that proves the value of actually learning it even more

Mike G: you have a moment where one person does it on accident

Mike G: all the sudden everyone's like "how'd you do that?"

Mike G: they immediately stop fighting each other and start messing with the controls

Mike G: THAT's a video gaming moment

Mike G: not twirling the right stick

Steven: (or they just read the instruction book)

Mike G: well yeah, but who really does that

Mike G: and even if they do

Steven: Newbies who use the "cheap stick"

Mike G: it will take them a bit to discover what it really means

Steven: Yes it will

Steven: And without that tool

Steven: They might never get there

Mike G: right

Mike G: but the people who do will have a more rewarding experience

Steven: Bullshit

Mike G: and that more important than everyone having a less rewarding experience

Steven: You're making assumptions again based on your personal preference

Mike G: isn't that what an argument is?

Steven: Yes, but it's better to prove your case with facts and logic than personal emotions and opinions

Mike G: but this is an entirely opinion based debate

Mike G: there is no such things as facts

Steven: Fact:

Steven: Sakurai designed Melee with C-Stick smashes

Steven: Fact: Sakurai kept C-Stick smashes in Brawl

Mike G: Fact: I disagree that that was a smart decision so I'm arguing with you.

Steven: You're not arguing with me

Steven: You're arguing with the person who put it in there in the first place

Steven: And he did it for a reason

Steven: One which you have decided is "cheap"

Mike G: and i would argue with him to his face

Mike G: he may be a game design genius, but that doesn't mean i can't disagree sometimes

Steven: It's fine to disagree

Steven: But the point I'm trying to make is this

Steven: Your blanket statement of "cheap stick" says that anyone and everyone that uses the C-Stick for smash attacks are playing the game incorrectly

Steven: Which is obviously not true

Mike G: no, not playing the game incorrectly

Mike G: calling it cheap or cheating is just sensationalized silliness for the sake of argument

Mike G: i obviously don't think the game is broken, as I still love them

Steven: No it's not.

Mike G: i just think the game would be better if it wasn't in it

Steven: I'm not saying the game is better or worse with it being in there

Steven: I'm saying that whether or not you like it, it's a designed part of the game with which people can use, however they want, to play the game

Steven: As designed

Mike G: and every time they do I can tell them that it cheapens the experience

Mike G: which i think it does

Steven: Cheapens it for you

Mike G: and for my friends

Mike G: cheapens it for my side of the argument let's say

Steven: But not for everyone, since you can't decide that for them

Mike G: right, but i can still wish that people didn't use it when i play with them

Steven: But it's still not right to call them "cheap" just because they do

Steven: jokingly or not

Mike G: right, but say i come charging at you with a sheik dash attack

Mike G: and you stop me one time with the c-stick

Mike G: and the next time with a normal smash

Mike G: i will always think "stupid c-stick" for the first one

Mike G: and I will always think "great move" for the second one

Mike G: because i don't think it should be in it

Steven: But you said they are the same thing!

Mike G: no

Mike G: the end result is the same

Mike G: that's what i said

Mike G: the rhythm involved in making a real one happen is harder

Steven: Thereby handicapping newer players

Steven: So basically

Steven: You're saying "stupid c-stick"

Mike G: thereby forcing newer players to learn advanced moves if they want to compete with advanced players

Steven: to newbies

Mike G: you can call that handicap

Mike G: i call it good game design

Steven: and "great move" to veterans

Steven: Hardly fair

Mike G: perfectly fair

Steven: There's a reason why Smash Bros. is the way it is

Mike G: is it unfair to tell the guy who dribbles it between his legs great move

Steven: Newbies can play the game together and have fun

Mike G: but ignore the guy who haphazardly slaps the ball into a cross over?

Steven: Veterans can play the game together and have fun

Steven: Newbies and veterans can play together and everyone can still have fun

Steven: For playing games like CvS2 and Third Strike for as long as I have

Mike G: right, but whether or not the c-stick is in doesn't affect any of those scenarios

Mike G: everyone would still have fun without it

Steven: I know for a fact that new players simply cannot have fun playing them against experienced players

Steven: Because the learning curve is higher in those games

Mike G: right

Mike G: but smash was perfect in its balance

Steven: What you want is to basically increase the learning curve of Smash Bros

Mike G: as smash attacks were one of the very few advanced moves

Steven: By wishing the C-Stick was not there

Mike G: i want to add a separate tier of players

Steven: You're essentially shutting out a lot of people from advanced play

Mike G: if that's an increased learning curve, then yes

Steven: Something that you don't even know if a lot of people care to get to

Mike G: actually not even add the second tier

Mike G: i want to enhance it

Mike G: because it's already there

Steven: FUCK THAT

Steven: The second you talk about tiers, you become one of those Smashboards nutjobs

Mike G: so are you claiming that 4 newbies who got together and played smash

Steven: Who we can all agree play the game on a level that ceases to be fun

Mike G: and smash attacks were totally impossible for them to do

Mike G: they wouldn't have fun?

Mike G: they still would

Steven: Yes

Steven: But the thing is, they can still have fun playing against experience players too

Steven: Which is the point

Steven: Of Smash Bros

Mike G: but you yourself claimed that the c-stick is no match for experienced players

Steven: I did not

Mike G: so they really can't have fun anyway

Steven: I said that experienced players learn to adapt

Mike G: unless cackling at the occasional cheap kill is their idea of fun

Steven: I play the game that is in front of me, against the players I am playing against

Mike G: and so do i

Mike G: i just have opinions on what would make it better

Steven: If I have a newb, a C-Stick smasher, and a veteran, I need to take that into consideration

Mike G: and i have a weird personal pride about my opinions that makes me not use the c-stick

Steven: Which is totally ridiculous

Mike G: no

Steven: I have weird personal pride about my opinions that makes me not jump

Mike G: because when i stop a rushing sheik with a smash attack

Mike G: i know i did it the way it should be done

Steven: I don't care what you think, the game would be better if people weren't allowed to jump

Mike G: which gives me a sense of accomplishment

Steven: Great

Steven: That's fine

Steven: But you're applying that belief to the rest of the game

Steven: To other players

Steven: "The game would be better without C-Stick smashing"

Mike G: it's like a mission

Steven: To you it would be, and to you only

Mike G: i believe that they would have a better experience without it

Mike G: and i want to show them

Mike G: not to me only

Mike G: i know other people on the same side of the argument as myself

Steven: Okay, and I know a lot of people who don't care either way

Steven: Like, 4 million people

Steven: And soon a few million more with Brawl

Steven: What you believe in is fine

Mike G: well the people that don't care are the people that i want to try and convince

Steven: But you don't need to preach it to other people

Mike G: it's like if someone doesn't know who to vote for in an election

Steven: hhaahahhaa

Mike G: both sides will try and show them why what they believe is correct

Mike G: I'm just saying i have all the right in the world to try and convince people otherwise

Steven: That's a poor analogy

Steven: What you don't realize is that you're the Ralph Nader of this debate

Mike G: but you are claiming i need to shut up because my opinion doesn't matter to other people

Steven: Alternative view, gets a lot of attention, ultimately doesn't affect the majority