Topic: BLAH BLAH BLAH: C-Stick Smashes in Smash Bros.: 'Cheap' or Not?

[WindyMan]

This is the Talkback thread for the special BLAH BLAH BLAH on C-Stick smashes in the Smash Bros. series.  Is Mike right?  Is Steven right?  Is this whole debate stupid?  Let us know!

[Dasmos]

tl;dr

I read the first page. Also Pale is wrong.

[Kairon]

I love the C-stick. But it also makes you a worse player. The C-Stick is a perfect example of Smash being accessible to newbs... while also offering a better, more complex way for experts to do stuff.

Real smash players smash by smashing, just like real smash players jump with a button. I do neither, lol.

Edit: MY GOD you people go on for THREE pages?!?!?

[Shift Key]

I don't care about the debate. Just like with Strikers online matches, the cheap tactics can be beaten by the good players.

[moo422]

For those who are on the fence on the topic, Dave Sirlin makes a very compelling and cohesive argument for the use of all available tools within a game.

Read the snippet here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

I suspect Steven Rodriguez has already read Sirlin's book, as he alludes to many of Sirlin's points throughout the argument. 

[WindyMan]

For those who are on the fence on the topic, Dave Sirlin makes a very compelling and cohesive argument for the use of all available tools within a game.

Read the snippet here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

I suspect Steven Rodriguez has already read Sirlin's book, as he alludes to many of Sirlin's points throughout the argument. 

I did read his book, which I found back in my days of being a hardcore fighting game player.  (I still am at heart, but I don't have the time or money to play in the arcades anymore.)  But if you'll read the debate I cite something at Shoryuken, which is basically the same thing as Sirlin said.

Also, I just found this out: If you hold the Z Button just after flicking the C-Stick, you'll get a charged smash that lets fly when you release the Z Button.  I did not know that!

[Enner]

Blah blah blah, is right. What a mess of chat log dialogue! Though, I guess that's something to be expected, right? Three pages of back-and-forth rambling makes me really wish the two guys to have put their passionate speech into an effective debate format. I guess time is always an issue, eh?

Anyway, on to the subject at hand:
Mr. Gaimin's zeal to his claim that the C-stick is a detriment to the game is a tiny bit disturbing for me. Seeing such care for a stance on an aspect of a game is always an interesting sight for me.
I think the best analogy to the C-stick was if there was just a single button press to preform one of the more basic Street Fighter II specials (Hadoken or Hurrican Kick). That was mentioned in the chat, but replaced by more unwieldy analogies. That best sums up Gaimin's arguement where the depth of a "real" smash is concerned: There should be a sequence that one can mess up when one is trying to preform something powerful. A SF2 player has to worry a bit to fire off a hadoken at exactly the right time the player wants to, and the 236+punch adds difficulty to that timing. In Smash example with the rushing Shiek, the defending player who needs an instant Smash would worry about not holding down the A button during the smash input sequence. The Hadoken button and the C-Stick would be eliminating an element of worry and the need for this specific finesse.

My view on this is that the C-stick is a welcome ease-of-usage option in a game that is all about accessibility. That accessibility extends to the controller with the philosophy to make it easy as possible for anyone to do something awesome and precise. I don't think having precise control (e.g. using the directional aerial attacks while mantaining a certain direction) should be made difficult at all in Smash. Anything to break, or at least soften, the control barrier between player and avatar is okay for Smash, in my book. There are games where the winning-or-losing timing is between player and a string of controller inputs. I don't think Smash should be one of those games, and Smash should be as far away from such games as it can be.

[Kairon]

Anything to break, or at least soften, the control barrier between player and avatar is okay for Smash, in my book. There are games where the winning-or-losing timing is between player and a string of controller inputs. I don't think Smash should be one of those games, and Smash should be as far away from such games as it can be.

Hear-hear! (here-here?)

[KDR_11k]

IMO if C-stick smashes are cheap then all smashes are cheap, the difficulty to input something should not be a way to balance something (well, when we're talking about direct controlled games, if you're using more complicated interfaces like Super Control Mecha MG or something then it's of course much different).

[Neodymium]

As someone who was ambivalent toward the c-stick debate, after having read this debate, I am no longer on the fence. Mike makes the much better points, throughout the article. He destroys Steven's weak philosophical-type arguments with straight logic. I am now in favor of bringing an end to c-stick smashes.

[NWR_insanolord]

I vote for this whole debate is stupid. It doesn't matter if you think they should be there or not, they are there. There is absolutely no point to argue about it because nothing can be done about it. Like them? Then be glad they're there. Hate them? Too bad, they're there, put up with them or stop playing. Bring the debate up again six years from now while they're making the next one and do it in a very vocal, very visible way. If you do that you may have some chance of having any sort of point to the argument. For now, enjoy Brawl. It's a fantastic game.

[TJ Spyke]

Steven is right. C-Stick smashes are not cheap and those who claim they are are just fooling themselves. They are probably the same as those idiots at Smashboards (I apologize to anywhere here who goes to that site) who think that their personal opinions about items and stages should be the official tournament rules. If you are not good enough to win on any stage and with items on, then you are NOT the best Smash Bros. player since the game was designed with items in mind and all stages. The ONLY stage I would support banning in tournaments is New Pork City since it is way too large to have a decent game on.

[Grant10k]

I used to think that C-Stick smashes were cheap. Same with edge guarding and some other tactics.

Then I read an article about playing to win, and realized I was dead wrong.

"Cheap" is a term used to transfer blame on one's own failure to an alleged unfair advantage.

As long as all the tools are available to every player, it's not 'cheap'.

From an analogy in the article, Cheap would be like a group of normal people playing basketball with 7-foot people, but the analogy breaks when you realize that both teams have a become-seven-feet-tall button.

[stevey]

I don't get how the C-stick can be faster than button smashes, to take your thumb off the button and move it to c stick to flick it can't possible be faster than just flicking the analog stick and press b/a at the same time

Steven: Turn off up jumping for improved results
Mike G: already did

How uncoordinated are people if you can't pull off an up smash. How are side or down smashes any different? And how is turning it off not cheating to though who have the skills to do it with it on?

[WindyMan]

How uncoordinated are people if you can't pull off an up smash. How are side or down smashes any different? And how is turning it off not cheating to though who have the skills to do it with it on?

Turning off up-jumping isn't for ease of smash attacks.  It's to make regular up-tilt-A attacks possible.  It was difficult, if not impossible, to do a regular Up+A in Melee quickly without jumping.  The difference between that and the C-Stick thing is that C-Stick smashes are just one of multiple ways to do the same thing (so therefore there could be no one "correct" way to perform it), but there was no other way to do an up-tilt-A.  This was universally accepted as a design flaw, because an attack was essentially mapped to the same function as a jump.

[DAaaMan64]

I beat people who c-stick. So I don't care.

[Pale]

I used to think that C-Stick smashes were cheap. Same with edge guarding and some other tactics.

Then I read an article about playing to win, and realized I was dead wrong.

"Cheap" is a term used to transfer blame on one's own failure to an alleged unfair advantage.

As long as all the tools are available to every player, it's not 'cheap'.

From an analogy in the article, Cheap would be like a group of normal people playing basketball with 7-foot people, but the analogy breaks when you realize that both teams have a become-seven-feet-tall button.

I'm gonna preempt what I say by saying Windy's and my debate was in good spirits.  I'm never claiming that the C-Stick breaks the game, just that I think the game would be better without it.

That said the above quoted argument is just silly.  Trying to claim that I am "blaming my failure" is a relatively immature stance to make.  You created a rule that fails on SO many levels.  To jump back to basketball, let's say someone created a league where they got rid of the dribbling requirement.  Both teams wouldn't have to dribble, so that would be fair, but it doesn't make the new version of the game any less lame.

[Plugabugz]

I don't care about the debate. Just like with Strikers online matches, the cheap tactics can be beaten by the good players.

Agreed. We turn on supercharge electric fences and infinite weapons and the result is a 3 minute match lasting 25 in sudden death.

[pb]

I kinda think tap jumps are a pretty good comparison actually.  Just as Mike mentioned feeling rewarded for figuring out how to do smash attacks the 'right way', I felt pretty good about learning how to do the up-tilts the old way in Melee.  It also allows you to do a quicker Up Air attack with good timing.  Just another nuance of the analog controls. Though maybe a little harder to do than a smash, it still seems the same for the sake of this argument.

I'd also point to the grab button on Smash 64.  If I remember right it's always just been a combination Z+A buttons mapped to one easier button, similar to the c-stick.  And just like c-stick most long time players probably use both methods of control to their advantage when the situation is right.

Guess what I'm saying is I kind of agree with both sides of that LONG conversation.  There is a lot of fun in doing smash attacks the old way and it was one of the better uses of analog control I've seen in a fighter.  Yet I personally see no problem using any control option you're given to your advantage.  Especially now that normal smashes can cause tripping...

[GoldenPhoenix]

Wait a second, is up jump bad? That is all I use to jump lol.

[Grant10k]

That said the above quoted argument is just silly.  Trying to claim that I am "blaming my failure" is a relatively immature stance to make.  You created a rule that fails on SO many levels.  To jump back to basketball, let's say someone created a league where they got rid of the dribbling requirement.  Both teams wouldn't have to dribble, so that would be fair, but it doesn't make the new version of the game any less lame.

I believe that crying "cheap" on game input methods is immature.

In your situation, if they got rid of the dribbling requirement, you are correct: it would be a fair, lame game. If one team decided that dribbling is the right way to play, even in this dribble-less league, and cried 'Cheap!' every time the other team didn't dribble, then they would be fooling themselves. Both teams should play by the rules, but nether should get mad if team B doesn't play by team A's made up rules.

Yes, it would be a lame game, but it would be because it would have been a poorly designed game.

That being said, if you were in a tournament with special rules, then you should follow them.

[MegaByte]

To jump back to basketball, let's say someone created a league where they got rid of the dribbling requirement.  Both teams wouldn't have to dribble, so that would be fair, but it doesn't make the new version of the game any less lame.

I don't really think this is analogous, but to make it more so, you'd have to add an additional stipulation: something like points gained from shots taken after not dribbling are only worth 1 point.

[Pale]

See, it's analogous because my whole opinion is that brawl is a better game without it. 

[Kairon]

See, it's analogous because my whole opinion is that brawl is a better game without it. 

Maybe that's what it comes down to, because my opinion is that due to the inaccessibility of fighting games, the accessibility gained by the c-stick makes Smash a better game.

Maybe basketball without dribbling is lame, but in the videogame world, it's ridiculous button combinations that many are coming to consider as "lame."

Wait a second, is up jump bad? That is all I use to jump lol.

I will never, EVER, jump with a button in Smash. This is my promise to you.

[Grant10k]

See, it's analogous because my whole opinion is that brawl is a better game without it. 

That's fair, but the issue isn't how good of a game it is. The issue is using tools that others call cheap. If everyone agrees not to use C-stick, then C-stick is out. But you have to get everyone to agree. If someone doesn't want to agree to that, then that's perfectly fine as well.

It's like asking everyone to agree to not use shields or jumps. If everyone agrees, then that's one thing, but you can't fault someone for jumping and shielding if they don't want to play by additional rules.