They forgot the part where EA didn't actually put any marketing muscle behind this other than the initial announcement.

Dead Space Extraction is a terrible barometer for deciding if Mature games sell on Wii. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles and Darkside Chronicles stomped Dead Space Extraction on Wii. While Resident Evil 5 on PS3 and 360 stomped Dead Space 1 on PS3 and 360. Also there was numerous mature titles on Wii that received a lot of success, and generally the companies supported those titles well or in some cases has a strong brand attached to it.

Dead Space isn't an established franchise since there was only two games released in the series with a third game coming up and a straight to video product. Resident Evil is more than ten years old, has many games across many formats and many movie products.

You beat me to it. EA and Visceral didn't make any substantive attempt to let people know that Dead Space: Extraction was there. Well, there's that, and it's in a niche genre.

Speaking of niche, that's exactly what both Madworld and House of the Dead: Overkill is catering to. Developers don't appear to be able to understand that a mature game doesn't sell solely on the fact that it has mature content. The audience that Madworld & HotD are aimed towards is the audience who tune into the reception surrounding games and they know that these two games are short, shallow experiences that if you would rent if you really wanted to try them.

Any company who uses this as an indication of how these games sell is missing the point. Sega seems to assume there's no audience for these games, but really it's the fact that these "litmus test" titles were extremely niche and poorly marketed.

It seems like 3rd party publishers are a lot like women when it comes to the Wii*.

Conducting all these secret little test that we didn't know we were taking and were designed for us to fail. We will never win because even if we do pass one of the stupid little test there will always be another one to take it's place.



*any jokes or puns that can be made from that statement are intended

Lucasz, if your argument for DS:E not being a good barometer has to do with the visibility of the franchise, then I would argue that DS:E does provide a barometer for whether a new IP Mature-rated game could sell on the Wii.  And say what you will about the marketing of the game, but if you look at the other games on the top 20 for September 2009, I see plenty of games that I don't remember seeing any marketing for.  Most of them are parts of established franchises, but it's not like Dead Space was a no-name series. 

In October 2009, Demon Souls for PS3 made the top 20, and I've to this day never seen a single advertisement for it.  Same goes with Borderlands.  On the HD systems, these types of games tend to sell more than 9000 copies without any more help than EA gave DS:E.

I know it's in vogue to say that these publishers put M-rated games out on the Wii to die, but there have been enough now that haven't done particularly great that I think it's time we looked at alternative explanations: the Wii userbase doesn't really care about them.

To Wii owners, Dead Space IS a no-name series.

To most PS360 owners Dead space is a no-name franchise.
The game sold barely over 1 mill over both versions WW last I heard and the movie was straight to DVD and practically unheard of. In fact, it was barely what one would consider a series until the 2nd game came out and they didn't even advertise it.

"but there have been enough now that haven't done particularly great"

And there have been enough to know they haven't be made to be particularly great.  The Wii userbase isn't particularly oblivious.  This is the alternative explanation.

The Conduit and other Mature Sega titles are more comparable to Dead Space than Resident Evil.

Resident Evil is a big, established powerhouse. The kind of Mature games Sega brought to Wii and might (not) bring to the system in the future are more in line with the kind of game that Dead Space, not Resident Evil.

Capcom could fart a RE game out on Wii and it'd sell better than The Conduit and Dead Space: Extraction combined.

Atlus never  airs any ads on TV, they may occasionally do some magazine advertisements.  Atlus primarily relies on email ads, PR to gaming media, word of mouth (just ask Lindy ;) ), and occasionally online ads (I've seen a few of them). While Atlus is still considered a niche publisher they do have a strong following and fanbase, strong enough that the company can simply thrive with fan support.

Atlus also has a tendency to hook players with their spoils promotions where they add in a free goodies such as soundtracks and art books in the pre-order copies or the first print runs.  For Demon's Souls, Atlus included a bonus of a free art book and soundtrack, players also had an option to purchase a deluxe edition for $10 more which included a  comprehensive strategy guide and came with a nifty embossed case that housed both the game and the strategy guide.

You never saw ads for Borderland?! I saw plenty of them on TV and online. While I'm not a big fan of Take 2, they are pretty good with advertising stuff especially their big titles and practically anything from Rockstar Games.

Advertising for Borderlands was all over TV so I'm not sure how you missed it.

I guess I do most of my TV watching these days on Hulu via PlayOn, so it's possible that I'm just completely out of touch on what's being advertised.  I would say, however, that running ads on TV is only a very small part of what makes effective advertising.  A better way of advertising, in my opinion, is talking with sites like ours, and the major gaming blogs, so they will run news stories about your game to keep your game in the public mindshare leading up to release.  I remember reading lots of stories about Dead Space: Extraction in the months leading up to it's release.  Likewise, I remember thinking very little about Borderlands until it was pretty much on the store shelves. 

I saw plenty of ads for Borderlands as well on both the internet and TV.

It's also kinda ridiculous to talk about first month sales being poor being such a big deal then going on about your own titles having slow burn sales.

Dead Space Extraction was on rails. That is the number one factor.


edit:Wait, does this mean Sega isn't publishing The Grinder? :(

Sorry, guy-from-Sega, but you're over-reaching.

Sure, video game fans finally revolted commercially at "YET ANOTHER RAILS SHOOTER FROM A RESPECTED FRANCHISE WHOSE ROOTS ARE MILES FROM A RAILS SHOOTER." But you're surprised at that? And further, you're drawing the conclusion that M-Rated games don't sell based on that, EVEN THOUGH you have evidence to the contrary FROM YOUR VERY OWN COMPANY???

My good fellow, I regret to inform you that, unfortunately but unequivocally... you are an utter nincompoop.

Let's hope someone ;) at Sega has to eat their words and The Grinder still has a publisher in Sega.

Last report on the Conduit, I think it was around 400-450k sold iirc, so If Sega is putting little of their own cash to publish and advertise(HVS is/was developing all on their own cash), then they should be happy with the sales.

Studio Director versus COO: I think a COO's comments hold more weight even if they are a few months old. Or am I misunderstanding what their positions are in the company.

If he's not Yuji Nakanakanakakano, why report on this guy?

"Sega Studio Director Constantine Hantzopoulos said recently on a podcast from 1up.com"

So did 1up get in touch with this guy in hopes of generating anti-Wii news from a Wii "supporter"?

Oh noes, shoddy games aimed at a niche audience fail! Who would've thought! Everybody always points at garbage like The Conduit while ignoring the sales of the Call of Duty games on the Wii.

Let's NOT point at CoD Wii games, at all.

They're just gonna conclude

1)  Old quickie cash-in ports are still OK
2)  WWII shooters are best for success

Well, if they sell then it's clearly what the customers want.

And since there aren't more of them, it's clear the other companies don't "get this" either.

Seriously, does this surprise us anymore? The Sega guy's comments just make me face palm.

Well that's odd. Sega is usually known for hanging in there, staying the course, and fighting through the hard times.

Not a rail-shooter.

Not a rail-shooter.

Those games are nothing like DSE. "Mature" is not a genre.

From the Constantine Hanztopomassina guy. Factually inaccurate considering the tie-ratio for Wii is something like 6 or 7 games per console. Either that, or he's admitting the other 20% on Wii is the most hardcore audience out there to buy so many games to make up the rest of the sales.

I just realized something.

Sega Studio. How many development studios does Sega of America have internally? If this is the case, then why the hell are we getting bent out of shape over this well, most of us are not but still.

I pray that this doesn't piss Nintendo fans off enough for them to boycott Monkey Ball Step & Roll.

Does Sega even produce 'mature' games internally anymore? I thought they merely published them.

Considering that Sega's M-rated "experiment" has turned out mediocre at best so far (however pretty Madworld is and simple fun Overkill is), I can't say I'll shed a tear over this.  I'm more concerned about the ripple effect on other 3rd parties, because it's clear that those games didn't fail just because they were M-rated.

So what both of you are saying is that this could be the biggest non-news of the year so far!?

Third Excuse Maker trolling is not news, it's whining on Facebook levels.

Seriously, WHY DEAD SPACE ONRAILS?! WHY?! Are third excuse makers seriously desperate for excuses on why they don't want to develop for the Wii?

Hope you have enough money for those Highly Dramatic projects Sega.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you actually played Dead Space Extraction?

Definitely not I -- the product does not perform a job I want done, so my interest had evaporated.

I played it. Payed full price too.
would be more satisfied if I had waited till $20.
It did have a few glitches and needed more polishing.

I played Dead Space Extraction. Was it pretty? Yes, the prettiest. Did it have good sound? Yes, the soundiest. Were the overall production values excellent? Yes, the valuest. Was it a good rail shooter? No.

House of the Dead Overkill and Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles are both better games. DS:E suffers from pacing issues which make ineffective at horror and ineffective as a carnival ride. It sure is slick looking though. Half the weapons are really good and most of the enemies are good too.

ok, this is a business decision from a guy working at SEGA.....

I remember right before Shenmue 2 was about to come out they decided to not release it in North America and release it on Xbox because Microsoft would advertise for them, well Sega fucked up because I don't remember any Shenmue 2 xbox adds. Also, considering the type of game mechanic that Shenmue has was some similarities with Zelda, wouldn't you think it would be popular with the Nintendo crowd. I'm sorry, but these companies don't understand that Nintendo fans can't be sold on looks and popularity...gameplay is what trumps all.

I played DS:E, bought at full price, and I enjoyed it very much. Co-op mode with my brother, no bugs, and we even stuck around to watch the motion comics we'd unlocked by beating the game! I don't think it has serious flaws as a rail shooter, we found it engaging, fast-paced, and VERY interesting to follow.

That said, I have to admit that I would rate Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles as the better "game." Dead Space Extraction was newer, more unique, and more fresh, but in terms of just gameplay it didn't involve the player with "game" elements like purchasing level upgrades or looking for secrets.

Still, my brother and I couldn't put down DS:E once we started playing it. I really am saddened to hear that a lot of people were disappointed in it. I happen to LOVE Rail Shooters, and the Wii's been very good to me in this regard. I'm still waiting for a port of Area 51, but until then I'll be replaying both games. A friend just bought his own copy of RE:DC, and I'll be bringing my own copy of DS:E for him to try out.

I certainly have and still own it, actually.  I'm currently trying to decide whether it (along with New Super Mario Bros. Wii) will be a sacrifice at the altar of Bioshock 2 in a month, but I did like the game.  It has a truly abysmal number of easy user path bugs, many leading to crashes, pacing issues and a complete lack of extras (on top of a very short runtime) that mean you'll never want to replay it...but it is a good game.  It's completely blown out of the water by Darkside Chronicles, though.

What Pro said.

I bought more interesting 3rd party games instead like Shattered Memories and Modern Warfare Reflex...games where you are not trapped on rails.

Interestingly enough, while Extractio does little to move me to a purchase in the end, Darkside is a more interesting game to me that I do want to pick up eventually. Maybe it's because I find RE2, Leon Kennedy and RE in general better and more interesting games, I really cannot tell you why for sure, but my interest in Darkside has always eclipsed Extraction. Maybe what Kairon and others have said about Darkside being a better 'game' is was did it in.

When we're discussing sales, isn't it enough to know that everybody thinks it's shit? We're the "hardcore" audience, we're the people who are supposed to know what's awesome and what's not and when even we think a game is bad how in hell's name do they expect it to sell? We're the audience they're trying to reach and utterly failed to reach.

I'm saving the money for Shattered Memories because I like exploring more than rails (and want to hit Aonuma in the head with a sign stating that).

I believe SixthAngel is with me on this one, but it's not the "rail shooting" i'm interested in, it's the physical TARGET PRACTICE that I want, using calibrated line-of-sight aim; a simple firearms simulator.  All of Sega's Wii shooters succeed in this regard.  My whole attraction to arcade shooters has everything to do with wielding some "toy" gun and applying a high level of hand-eye coordination and a little shoulder stamina.  My aim is my own, not some glorified presentation pointer.

All those other games are just dumbed-down arcade games that have to rely on other gameplay/presentation elements to distract you from the fact you've always got training wheels: the screen tells you where you're pointing at!  (srsly, how can I take anyone who doesn't use the Zapper for Link's Crossbow Training srsly?  It's called Crossbow Training, use the fucking "crossbow" you fat babies!  The game already tells you where you're aiming!  Play games with dignity and decency for once!)

There's nothing inherently wrong with the existence of these casual shooting gallery games, but the heart of this niche market is largely pathetic, given birth primarily thru the purpose of offering dumbed-down spinoffs from more robust gaming experiences (Zelda, RE, DS; anymore?)

ON THE OPPOSITE END, I have little to no problem with RE4: Wii Edition being what it is:  a character-based action adventure that WAS originally designed for gamepad values then enhanced with pointer functionality.  The game doesn't make the jump to being some kind of Leon The Gunman simulator.  But all those "rail shooters," with the character movement element taken out, are automatically viewed from the Arcade Gun Game end of the spectrum.  DSE spectacularly fails at both ends, without clearly carving its own path.

guided first person adventure......

Man, this poor guy is probably getting so much shit for an off-hand remark.

1UP's idea of getting industry people on their podcast might not end up as the best thing in the world - especially when this stuff comes out.

150,000,000 %.

I finally saw Zombieland and understood your reference from the other post.  Talahasee don't use no cursor!

I haven't played it. When it was announced, I was excited – I'd heard good things about the original game, and was anxious to play this one. Then I found out that it would be an on-rails shooter, and many things which made me excited about the original game would be gimped or gone completely.

At that point, I wrote the game off. Regardless of a cool story or big scares or pretty graphics or "soundiest" sound (haha), I'm just not a fan of on-rail shooters, I can't help it.

P.S. - In my other post in this thread, I was callling the Sega guy a nincompoop, not anyone in this thread. jsyk :D

Getting away from Dead Space, which I agree was probably not a particularly good argument for him to be making, I will be very curious to see how Silent Hill does.  I know the game hasn't received much marketing, but it's a well known and well loved franchise.  On top of that, it's really fantastic.  If this game were on Xbox 360 or PS3 it would sell well, I am convinced of that.  I can't seen to find data on how well Silent Hill Homecoming did, but I did find a page on the internet (so it must be true) stating that Shattered Memories sold 47K in it's first week, which was in line with Homecoming. 

Shattered Memories has flaws, but it is very enjoyable. Not bad for the first entry (and a re-imagining) of the very first Silent Hill game.

Well, every game has flaws.

Except for one problem, the supposed 'flawless' games that receive tens get a majority of the sales and I found those games to have several flaws that hinder my enjoyment. In fact, in my top twenty five games list, none of the games are perfect, they are ENJOYABLE.

The only game that has come close to being perfect this generation is Super Mario Galaxy and (IMHO) New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Flaws present? Yes. Enjoyable and has replay value? Yes and yes.

Just because a game gets a 10 doesn't mean that it's flawless.  I don't think anyone would argue that fact.

Its tough to blame Sega on this one. They spent a lot of time on three quality games, threw them at the wall, and couldn't get one to stick. Wii sales are just odd. Some great games tank and some games that should tank sell great. Galaxy is an interesting case study. While it's sales are certainely good they should be much higher. There are millions of Wii owners ignoring this title. Is it that they don't know about it or are they just not interested in 3D platforming?  With the userbase at the size it is now it'll be interesting to see how Galaxy 2 performs if this new userbase see advertising for it. 

So considering giants like Galaxy are clearly not meeting their sales potential it makes sense for publishers to be weary about new Wii investments. Especially after three earnest attempts.

Considering this is Silent Hill's first outing on a Nintendo console, I think it would be pretty incredible if it did sell as well as Homecoming did already (especially considering Konami's Dead Space Extraction-esque method of only advertising in web banners).  Yeah, it's a game that has problems, but I think the overall quality of the game shines through as something unique that could only really be done on Wii (I know it's a multiplatform title, but c'mon all the game's mechanics are very Wii-centric).

As for Dead Space Extraction, I think that's a title that simply got yanked from the developers before it was ready.  The apparent lack of quality bug fixes alone says that much.  But for all its problems, it does try to carve out its own niche in the rail shooter genre as something very story-based and fairly immersive (witness the lengths the game goes to establish that your character is interacting with the world via frequent shots of their arms and legs).

Just like to remind you what website you write for here. :) The way you worded this, it sounded like you were surprised Take 2 didn't come here to advertise their game. :)

3D Mario titles are not as accessible to newcomers as the 2D titles are, not matter how awesome (Galaxy) they are. It's also a known fact that no matter how good the 3D Mario games are, their overall sales will not make a dent in the long burn of the 2D Mario titles.

Metroid Prime 3 got the same advertising when it was first released, and it sold only a tiny bit less then Bioshock 1's overall sales on the 360. Then again, Metroid Prime is part of a established franchise.

But so is Silent Hill. I can imagine most of the Wii owners (including myself) have played at least one Silent Hill game on the PS2.

Well no, I didn't expect to see Borderlands ads here, but Dead Space and Silent Hill could both use a little bit of help from Nintendo-centric sites.  We got a really great interview with the developers of Shattered Memories that is what I'm talking about.  It's in their best interest to find their consumer on the internet, where they're talking about the game, and speak to them.  Let them know more about it, get word of mouth going. 

But NWR is only one of the gaming sites I visit regularly.  I also visit Joystiq and MTV Multiplayer, and I listen to about a half dozen gaming podcasts weekly, and I just don't remember the word of mouth for Borderlands being there.  Maybe I just didn't notice it, that's certainly possible.  I do, however, remember lots of talk about Dead Space Extraction in the lead up to it's release.

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that REALLY matters that much with an IP like Silent Hill, which has been around long enough for even the Nintendo-only gamers to have formed some kind of opinion about, even if it is as generalized as "interested/not interested."

I think we should judge the success of "mature" ps2 games using the same metrics we do the Wii.  So we have three ways to judge.  Suda 51, Platinum Games guys (Madworld) and rail shooters.

Killer 7 bombs hard on the ps2.
God Hand bombs hard on the ps2 (so does Okami).
Rail shooters exist?  I guess there are a few arcade ports.

According to my exhausting research of test games the ps2 was a terrible system for anything "mature. "  It obviously was a failure for all of the "mature" games.

Seriously, this 1,000 times.

Mature is not a genre, but a way of life for most gamers/third parties.

This is our sad reality.

I wish someone would strap some dynamite to these rails and derail them. Rail shooters suck! :(

Can't expect third excuse makers to use the last dying bit of their brain power to make something good. God forbid they do, it might sell well.

We are all better off just giving our spending dollars to Nintendo until the de Blob team makes another Wii game that is.

I would only count Conduit as a truly legitamate try. Madworld and Overkill were niche. FPSes have broader appeal.

I'm sorry, but this is not a litmus test. We need to see some quality M-rated efforts on the Wii of the sort that is confirmed to sell well on any other system. Rail shooters don't cut it. How well do these games sell on PS3/360? My guess is they probably don't well on those systems either, and I can't even think of any off hand that do exist on those platforms, because those systems get real games instead of half-ass crap.

It pisses me off that this Sega guy is using rail-shooter crap as a litmus test. It isn't fair.

It's funny that Sega hasn't even made these games themselves.

MUST BE PROUD OF THAT SEGA TENNIS HUH, IN-HOUSE PRIDE LEMME HEAR A WHUT-WHUT

Takashi Iizuka must be so proud of Sonic '06.

for Nintendo to get a best selling MACHooor game on one of its system it has to snag exclusive metal gear whatever for whatever its next system, and whatever is the popular casual gamers preffered shooter series at the time, and like an exclusive resident evil game, and like make their own exclusive machoor game to boot, the finally everyone will stfu about machoor games on Nintendo consoles...
really goddamned esrb..back in the day there were no real content ratings, and what type of grey area did we live in?

If there was no ERSB ratings, NoA would still censor games.

Agreed.

Look, 3D is awesome and all, but I couldn't get my parents, who absolutely PWNT at the NES Zelda and taught me all its secrets, to play an hour of Ocarina of Time. Plus there are other issues like Camera control and the search for the elusive 'perfect" camera. 2D Mario really has a huge advantage in the audience it can appeal to therefore.

Galaxy has sold over 8 million copies and is one of the best selling games released this gen on any system.  The only games released on the HD systems combined to sell more then Galaxy are both Modern Warfare titles, Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto 4.  By your logic Sega should drop all 360/PS3 support as well then since anything that's not a FPS or crime simulator isn't meeting it's sales potential either.

It's amazing how a Nintendo game can sell 8 million worldwide and be considered a mediocre performance.

Hell, all Silent Hill games had major flaws and never sold much (VGChartz says Homecoming sold 400k per version).

The latter. I believe NSMBW has already beaten Galaxy in some territories.

It may just be me, but I think 2D games are a lot harder than modern 3D games. I don't know why, but on the old NES games they seemed hard, and even playing them now I keep dying... This is especially true in platformer games where you have to land on some tiny platform while you're being attacked by enemies and stuff. Maybe some people can do that, but I just end up getting frustrated.

Would you believe that to this day I've never been able to finish SMB1 from the NES? I can get to world 9 or whatever (thanks mainly to the cheat) but it gets insanely hard with the tiny platforms and the beetles... *shudder* But I've beaten every 3D Mario game without a problem. I've also beaten Super Mario World and SMB3, but there's just something about SMB1.... and that's weird because it is the first game I've ever played in my life.

So I can't speak for others, but I will have to disagree about 2D games being more accessible....

I don't think that more accessible means it's easier by any means. I think if you give someone New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Mario Galaxy, they'd show an understanding of NSMBWii's gameplay much sooner.

I didn't beat SMB1 until I got the GBC version that had a save feature. It was pretty hard.

It already has, from what I read.

And on the topic of third excuse makers having the MATURITY HD preference, we have read alot of news about layoffs and bankrupty, but how much of the budget can an over the top 'AAA' game get back from sales alone?

I ask this because Bayonetta has disappeared off of Famitsu's sales charts. I wonder how well it will do in America (where I suspect it will do better).

lol, ive beaten SMB1 100s and 100s of times

Amazing it doesn't get old, no?

I beat SMB1 during the first time(play session) me and my cousin played it.

back on topic... for now

While I can imagine most of the gaming media is loving all this Wii getting denied M rated games (because M rated games are awesome lolol!11), this in some sick twisted sort of way may be good for Nintendo. I don't know why I am thinking this, but if third parties put hardly any effort into their games, Wii owners will buy more Nintendo games, giving Nintendo more money which equals a wider range of products for their two systems.

Christ, what is wrong with me?

This is scary. If the perception by players is that third parties have given up on them, players might give up on third parties as well.

Sounds like the Game Cube.

What is Kairon doing to save third parties on the Wii?

No, that is perfectly valid.  When Nintendo commands more cash in this industry, their Pac-Man shape on the Industry Pie Chart becomes more dominant, which certainly means the 3rd parties aren't doing as well as they could be (minus Nintendo, the remaing software market is confirmed to be in decline).  Publishers and devs will go belly-up or be "acquired" (hopefully by Nintendo dollars).  Good riddance, hardtard game companies.

If this Industry will be destroyed, it should be crushed under the weight of a Wii Fat Plus-sized Nintendo.

This is fantastic because we know the Expanded Audience is hardly invested in the 3rd parties including the software of the declining platforms.  3rd parties don't have anywhere to turn but their declining "fanbase."

Gaming's 2012 is approaching faster and faster.

If you want, I ran across a list of all/most the 3rd party studio closure/acquisition/downsizings and will start a new thread listing them all.

You'd do that for us?  Such a darling.

DEATH TO THE INDUSTRY

Done

Games Industry Death Watch 2009

Hopefully not.  Nothing good can come of an industry controlled by Nintendo alone.

Nothing good can come out of an industry making the same old crap, just with an HD coating.

Instead you'd rather have an industry controlled by a company that just makes the same old crap, just with motion control waggle?  I'll take a balanced industry with Nintendo producing games other companies don't, and in turn them producing games Nintendo doesn't.  Everyone gets the kind of games they want, and we continue to see the rise of new ideas in the industry through competition.

Exercise is always a good thing, no?

Would you rather have Nintendo release a Metroid game where the plot is explained by nanomachines? Would you rather have Nintendo release just FPS games with space marines? Would you rather have Nintendo give out money hats to game reviews?

Well?

They already did.  It's called Metroid Fusion.

Of course, those games are the vast majority of games released on the other consoles.

They don't have to.  All they have to do is slap the "nostalgia" sticker on a game, and reviewers will trip over each other to give out high scores

*eyes New Super Mario Bros. Wii*

Sure didn't stop them from docking review points!

What I wonder is what kind of sales they would expect from a game like House of the Dead Overkill on another system. It's an arcade light-gun shooter, meaning there already isn't a big market for it to begin with. But Wii is the best system for that type of game because it can already be a light gun without the need of a peripheral, so if Sega wanted to produce another game in that series then it would probably be unwise to release it on another system.

As much as people try to contend it, it would seem to me that The Conduit is a good indicator of what sells on Wii. It may be a new IP but it received generally favourable review scores, regardless of the actual quality of the title. New IP's can seemingly sell well on other platforms; recent million + sellers I can think of are Borderlands, Battlefield Bad Company, Left 4 Dead, Batman Arkham Asylum, Prototype, Army of Two, InFamous, Dead Space, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, and Gears of War. Looking at a list like that, and the sales figures for "mature" games on Wii, it would seem to me that the majority of people with a Wii have already moved on to another system to satisfy their wants for that kind of game.

People also claim that games like No More Heroes and MadWorld are niche games. Once again, these are "mature" games which received favourable reviews, something which seems to sell on PS360. So what makes them niche? The fact that they're not shooters? Neither are Fallout 3, Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge, etc. They're niche because the market for "mature" games on the Wii is minuscule.

I know there are "mature" games like Call of Duty and Resident Evil which sell more than a million. I think that just goes to show that only "mature" games (and third-party games in general) which are a part of an established franchise have any real chance of selling on Wii. So it wouldn't be wise for any company to create an exclusive "mature" game for Wii as it'll post better numbers on the other systems, which means from here on out we'll likely see nothing but (possibly late) ports.

I think the only reason we try to refute these claims is because we want more games released for our favourite system.

It isn't that it is a Nintendo game, but rather that it is a Mario game. If you go by percentages then Super Mario Galaxy is a slight under-performer based on the previous two 3D games. Super Mario 64 sold about 11 million worldwide, which is approximately 1/3rd of the system's userbase. Super Mario Sunshine sold 5.5 million worldwide which was 1/4th of the system's userbase. Super Mario Galaxy's 8 million isn't even 1/5th of the system's userbase. This goes to show something, though I'm not sure as to what.

People also claim that games like No More Heroes and MadWorld are niche games. Once again, these are "mature" games which received favourable reviews, something which seems to sell on PS360. So what makes them niche? The fact that they're not shooters? Neither are Fallout 3, Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge, etc. They're niche because the market for "mature" games on the Wii is minuscule.

I know there are "mature" games like Call of Duty and Resident Evil which sell more than a million. I think that just goes to show that only "mature" games (and third-party games in general) which are a part of an established franchise have any real chance of selling on Wii. So it wouldn't be wise for any company to create an exclusive "mature" game for Wii as it'll post better numbers on the other systems, which means from here on out we'll likely see nothing but (possibly late) ports.

I think the only reason we try to refute these claims is because we want more games released for our favourite system.

A Suda51 game managed to sell 300,000 copies on the Wii.

It obviously goes beyond "mature" or "not mature." I think that the wii fanbase has a value system that is just different from what you'd expect. You can't keep using the traditional and increasingly hardcore idea of a "gamer" when looking at the Wii. This entire console is built around challenging that perception.

The dirty little secret of this generation's "hardcore players" is they are greatly made up of a group that was looked down upon last generation. They are the frat boys and dudebros who only played GTA, Halo, and Madden. They don't branch out to try new things. During the days of the PS2/Cube/Xbox they called them jocks and softcore players.

Look at where the Japanese RPG market is this generation, the "hardcore" don't want those game on their HD systems. They want first person shooters, third person shooters, and the occasional third person melee combat.

They didn't want Madworld because it has a bizarre and scary art style. They didn't want Deadly Creatures because bugs are for little kids. Rail shooters don't fit their criteria either. No more heroes despite being too weird for most of them was a modest success for Suda51 and I expect the 360/PS3 port to do decently.

As a continuation to my last post;

Ubisoft is a good example of good will gone sour. They started off with a genuine good solid effort in Red Steel even though it seemed a little rushed. THen they followed it up with Raving Rabbids. Everything was still good at that point. Many Petz, Babiez, Horsez, and two Rabbid party games later, most of us have pretty much stopped looking at Ubisoft games.
Rabbids Go Home suffers because of this.

Capcom is another offender of this violation of trust. They brought over RE4 with promises of more to come if RE:UC does well and all we get after we all buy into the lies is RE:DSC while RE5 goes HD and ignores the entire Wii audience. Then the perfect chance for Capcom to redeem the mistake (RE5 Alternate Edition) and it is an exclusive to an unproven peripheral when it could be a multi release alongside the motion focused market leader.
But then everyone wants to lame the Wii for saggin sales and non-interest from "core" "mature" gamers when all we get are low budget, late port, mini-game focused, on-rail, unoptimized, afterthought shovelware projects that they couldn't even be bothered to bug test and advertise.

We aren't the problem, they are. Give us the same games you would make for the other systems only make them work on the Wii. That is all. We don't want the gameplay changed because you think you know what some fictional focus tested typical Wii user would be able to handle and would want to play. We aren't against the rail shooter, but we are against the Rail shooter in place of a real game that the other consoles got as some sort of consolation prize because Wii users are all casual and can't play regular regular games because their too hard, complicated or complex.

My army is growing.

I wouldn't disagree with that. In fact, I have a similar sentiment. Third-excuse-makers needed to give the Wii full support from day one in order to establish a market for their games, they're the ones who are responsible for a lack of market for "mature" games. I imagine most of the people who would buy their games have already gotten tired of waiting and own another system by now. For this generation, it is probably too late. I can only hope they've learned from this and will give Nintendo's next system full support from day one, though with their refusal to ever admit they've done something wrong, it isn't looking likely.

The Wii has become a shovelware, late-port, low-budget dumping ground; dozens of low quality titles pushed out every month, with only a short shelf life before disappearing into obscurity. It matters not to most companies because they probably need only a few thousand copies sold to break even and everything else is cash in the bank. But they seem to need to sell those few thousand relatively quickly before they disappear into the bargain bin, then replaced on the shelves by newer, cheaper dreck.

I sugar-coated that, of course. This isn't about what should have been, it is about what is. And what is would seem to be that there isn't much of a market for "mature" titles on Wii, especially compared to PS360.

*raises hand*

I'd uh... just like to take this moment to say that even though, since I only own a Wii, I may never get the chance to own games like Mirror's Edge or Bayonetta... I'm fine. I've got a Wii backlog about a dozen games deep, filled with third-party titles like A Boy and His Blob, the collector's edition of Cursed Mountain, and well... okay, sue me, The Dog Island. It's an old game, but it caught my interest, it got decent reviews, and I just haven't had the time to find out what that's all about yet you know?

Wii gamers have a challenge when it comes to seeking out traditionally sensationalistic games (I got No More Heroes 2 pre-ordered though!), but the 3rd party offerings, taken on the whole instead of just one segment of the market, are better than they've been for quite awhile for a Nintendo-only owner like me.

This is true, but you can't put the full blame for this on the 3rd parties, not when Nintendo designed the Wii to be like this by intentionally making it dramatically less powerful than its competitors and seemingly doing whatever it can to half-ass development on the console.  Releasing a console that's cheap to make games on means you're going to have cheap shovelware that only needs a relative handful of sales to turn a profit.  Nintendo chose to have that happen to the Wii.  Also, how can the 3rd parties be expected to put their full effort into a title on the platform that's not going to sell, no matter how good the game is, when Nintendo themselves clearly aren't putting their full effort behind their Wii titles?

That said, we have and are going to have good titles on the Wii.  They're just few and far-between, seemingly more so than on the HD consoles.

In response to Miu:
But that is the the point. The "mature" market is here, we just aren't getting the "mature" games we want. They instead get released on the HD consoles and we get "dreck" and unwanted compromises in their place.*cough*railshooter*cough*

Show me the GTA Wii or the RE5 Wii or the Assassins Creed Wii. Most of these games even get a DS version, yet a Wii version is not possible. WTF is that... i don't even. Where are all the Wii versions of the same "mature" games that are getting ported around to all the HD system? and we don't want to hear the "It can only be done on an HD system" BS because that wasn't stopping the exact same type of games from being made last gen or even on teh PSP & DS this gen.

"the collector's edition of Cursed Mountain"

What the hell!  Such an edition exists??

Wii are getting Mature games; Wii just aren't getting QUALITY Mature games.

I think the only way this is going to change is if Nintendo starts getting the games rolling themselves and show the 3rd parties how its done. I know Nintendo doesn't like to make M games themselves, but they can make them happen with the help of their 2nd parties. If that isn't an option, then they can start buying studios or set up new ones from scratch to start getting these games produced. We know Nintendo has the money to make this happen, and they should.

Then when the quality Nintendo produced Mature games start selling like crazy, what will this Sega jerk have to say then?

REAL Survival Horror seems to be another genre that the dudebros of the HD persuasion can't handle. That's why RE5 is all steroids and guns.

Wait, I thought you owned a PlayStation 3? Regardless, I find myself agreeing with pretty much every word you said.

Show me these third-party games of which you speak which have the same effort as Nintendo's own games. The few that do exist seem to have sold pretty well. And maybe people wouldn't be weary of third-party games if they didn't release so much dross. Nintendo earned their reputation by creating great games.

How do you know the market is still here? If you wanted the games you just mentioned, would you not have already went out and bought one of those systems? We're over three years into this generation (four years for the XBox 360) so I have a hard time believing that there are very many people left who would buy those games.

I'm sure there are plenty of gamers out there that can't justify the purchase of more than one gaming system and support that system with actual games that they want to play to make that purchase worth it.

There are quite a few games I would buy if I had a PS3
Demon's Soul, Bayonetta, Borderlands & Uncharted 3 to name them off the top of my head
but I don't actually see myself purchasing a PS3 to play any of them, so I am extremely disappointed when games like those don't make their way to all the systems, especially the market leading console that has a single market share that is equal or greater to the other 2 systems combined.

PS2 didn't have these types of problems and the whole SD vs HD argument is BS so I really don't care to hear it.

The other two systems have more than just HD, they have so much more processing power and other specs I don't comprehend. I have no doubts that there are games on those systems which are not possible on Wii. But I haven't really played any games on either system so I can't really discuss what of them could be possible on Wii, or what kind of extra programming would be required to re-work games.

I hate it when people pin this on the Wii's hardware. Nintendo did what they had to do not to, as the analysts used to say, "go out of business." And if they also happened to keep development costs cheap, and espouse a value system that rewards fun over pixels, well then that's good too.

ARGH. Why do people think this? Do they have any idea who created Wii Sports? Wii Fit? Wii Music? Miyamoto, only one of the most valuable designers in the industry. I mean, seriously, this is EAD we're talking about here. Just because the game doesn't fit a certain value system doesn't mean that it didn't come out of one of the most respected, innovative, and quality development houses out there.

Oh, sorry. Technically, it's the 'Limited Edition." Game soundtrack, Making of DVD, Solid, Sturdy, harder case, HD gaming price.

What store sold it?  HOW DID I MISS IT?

While everyone complains about the Wii they don't seem to notice the huge difference in the "hardcore" games this time around.  FPS were small on ps2 compared to today.  A lot of the games I liked last generation and the "gamers" loved are essentially nonexistent right now outside the ds.

?

I think it's still being sold on Amazon.

Sure is:

http://www.amazon.com/Cursed-Mountain-Limited-Nintendo-Wii/dp/B002M6VSOM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1262856536&sr=8-2

Interesting article about Darkside Chronicles and more poor sales of 'mature titles' on Wii.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/capcom-disappointment-over-resident-evil-wii-sales

Already covered here

Fuck me.

Just bought it now to replace my LAMESTOP copy.

Yeah, we've moved on. MOVED ON FROM TABLESCRAPS LIKE THAT, that is.

That's because they were designed to be hard to wring more quarters from you. Modern games almost seem designed to prevent the player from losing. They're still a LOT more confusing to newcomers because you've got movement in three dimensions to account for and usually more than the two buttons the NES had. They tend to add all kinds of special jumps and maneuvers whereas a 2D game would limit its physics to "if you're on the ground you can jump, if you land on something you can walk on it".

So "we've moved on now"?  As in, we're seeing another console?  This is a weird industry.

This man speaks truth.

This is true. The DS is the PS2.

This is true. I mean, just look at NSMBWii.

Also, Miyamoto is way ahead of the game on this one. He has been trying to get back to one-button gameplay ever since the GameCube era. 

Started reading that article, and was about to give the French dude props for calling it like it is, and making an astute and honest observation, but then I realized he was still a PR tool.

All that talk about "moving on" I took to be referring to gamers "moving on" from the "novelty"/"gimmicky" moves of turning deep, adventure/platform/etc. games into light gun/on-rails shooters or mini-game fests. Sure, it's fine one time (Umbrella Chronicles, Raving Rabbids, etc.), but to do it over and over again? Heck yeah we're going to "move on," meaning the Expansion-Pack-Priced-Like-A-Full-Sequel isn't going to sell like gangbusters.

But no. Dude in that interview = silly PR tool. Sorry for the misunderstanding there, fella.

maybe if they released some better games their sales would do better. The public isn't purchasing lightgun games, but a port of Resident Evil 4 was a million seller. I don't think the genre will ever be that popular. I think the logic by releasing so many was that previously the games were tres expensive because you had to purchase that extra light gun, but now the Wii solves that. However, the Wiimote solves that problem and they're still not selling, so their just an unpopular genre. Gamers like choices, and rail shooters don't offer them. In Madworld's regard i still want to buy the game, its just when it first came out it was nowhere to be found, plus i never saw tv ads for it. So a combination of not widely available, and not marketed led it to be an obscure game.

It's only $20 on Amazon right now. I'd go for it if you are still interested.

I really, really reallly reallly can't wait for Zelda Wii. Uncharted 3 eat your heart out.

Do you mean Uncharted 2, going be a wait for 3. 

To Kairon, you missed the point.  People were willing to pay a few dollars more for one system that does both or the fact Nintendo could have taken a hit and sold the consoles at a lost because Nintendo has a big enough warchest that losing a few dollars up front wouldn't have killed them.  They sell the WII at a profit.