Bloodworth's impressions already detail the complex control scheme, so I will not repeat it here. Overall, I find the control on Wii to be in some ways just as good as previous Zelda outings, and in other ways too complex with a high learning curve. First of all, the basics work; movement, Z-Targeting, sword, action button, all perform traditionally and responsively. What does not work is the D-Pad item usage. The D-Pad is just too far up on the Wii Remote. Switching between items on the D-Pad is laborious since you must reposition your hand to reach it. Nintendo seems to have gone out of their way to make your thumb naturally rest on the A button, but at the cost of alienating the D-Pad from normal gameplay usage. This is an inherent problem with a vertical controller, and will not be alleviated unless the buttons are repositioned. Another problem with the D-Pad is that it just doesn't feel good to use items on it, especially when compared to the C buttons or the X, Y, Z combo from Wind Waker.
The Nunchuk spin attack is a much better control element, but it is occasionally difficult to engage. The Nunchuk's accelerometer seems to be responsive, but also specific. If you don't do precisely what the game wants, your character will just sit there. However, there are accelerometer problems with a lot of games in Nintendo's booth, which again means the problem is with the Wii controller, not the game.
Finally, the aiming in Zelda is of major concern. Sensitivity of the Wii Remote is an issue across the board, and is hardly worth repeating here. Much more worthy is the problem of gameplay necessity. When playing Metroid or Red Steel, you are always aiming your weapon – the Wii Remote is an extension of your hand, and the on-screen action relies on your constant participation. There are portions of the Zelda demo, large portions, where the motion sensitivity in the Nunchuk and the Wii Remote are unused. When moving across the landscape, using items that do not require aiming, and even when fighting most enemies, the Wii Remote is useless. When I switched from doing these traditional actions to aiming a bow, I found I had let the Remote drop like I would a normal gamepad. Since the Remote was now pointed at a downward angle, my bow would point at the ground as well. Your posture during normal gameplay and aimed gameplay does vary and part of the learning curve for Wii is learning to control it.
In summary, the Wii Remote is essentially a GameCube pad cut in two while playing Twilight Princess. Only long-range items require the special functions, and these are emphasized in the demo for a reason. The Wii Remote's button placement is not appropriate for most games, Zelda especially, and performing the expected motions on the controller consistently (particularly the Nunchuk) is difficult. No one wants to play a game where pressing a button on the gamepad works only half the time.
So what are we left with? Is Zelda on Wii going be worthless? Hardly. On the E3 show floor it is impossible to hear the sound coming from the speaker on the Wii Remote, and “immersive sound" is a feature I am greatly anticipating. It also goes without saying that Nintendo has got way more up its sleeve for this game. With the promised length and dungeon count, there must be items that will use innovative controller features. However, so far it seems that to use an item, you hit the D-Pad, and that's it. Where's the revolution in that?
Zelda: Twilight Princess looks to be a fantastic game, and no one should be without a copy when it comes out. However, Nintendo must allow the Wii version to be played with a GameCube controller as well as the Wii Remote, otherwise the risk to the hardcore gamer (this game's primary audience) will be too high. If Nintendo is open-minded enough to allow this option then those gamers on the fence can give it a chance without regretting their purchase. I, for one, will take the soft (read: GameCube) option if Nintendo opts for a hard-sell.
QuoteIGN had a great model of the controller where you could move it around and see the size and everything, but I can't find it now..
Beyond the twitchy issues, I'm curious about the current configuration of the remote. Are there any pictures that have a 1:1 scale of its current configuration?
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What does not work is the D-Pad item usage. The D-Pad is just too far up on the Wii Remote. Switching between items on the D-Pad is laborious since you must reposition your hand to reach it. Nintendo seems to have gone out of their way to make your thumb naturally rest on the A button, but at the cost of alienating the D-Pad from normal gameplay usage. This is an inherent problem with a vertical controller, and will not be alleviated unless the buttons are repositioned. Another problem with the D-Pad is that it just doesn't feel good to use items on it, especially when compared to the C buttons or the X, Y, Z combo from Wind Waker.
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Originally posted by: pap64
- E3 isn't really a good enviroment to play games: You have lots of people watching and waiting for you to finish and a limited time. I think this seriously affects how a game plays, especially a game like Zelda. It just doesn't beat sitting down with the game in the comfort of your own house and play it. This seems one of those games that are best enjoyed and understood playing at home instead of a large, noisy game enviroment.
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- This is an early demo: You guys have to remember that a lot of these demos are running on early hardware, so you are bound to have bugs in the demos. Like Bloodworth mentioned on the Wii forum E3 is mainly a big focus group in which they gather information from the gamers and implement that info onto the final game.
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So I think a better idea would be to wait till the game is finally released and see how it plays then before declaring it a lost cause.
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And your lack of faith towards Nintendo is EXTREMELY disturbing, Ian.
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Remember playing Majora's Mask back on the N64? Despite the novel three-day setup, some players found that it felt a bit too similar to The Ocarina of Time and thus simply wasn't as exciting and fresh. I have a feeling Twilight Princess might have turned out the same way. It's a gorgeous game filled with great puzzles and characters -- and apparently it's a longer and more involved quest than any Zelda game before it -- but it's firmly rooted in the TOoT-style of gameplay. Well, not anymore. The changes the control setup in the Wii version adds to the game profoundly impact the game's feel. Fishing feels new. Blocking feels new. Shooting arrows feels new. Even the spin attack has a new twist to it. So even though you may encounter a familiar looking puzzle, the new control dynamics give everything a fresh coat of paint. Yes, you can get excited now.
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane Majora's Mask is true innovation. They didn't change the controls they changed the game on top of the controls. They took the Zelda formula and created a vastly different game around it, that still felt like Zelda.
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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Still not sure which version I'm going to get. It'd be nice if the Wii version supported a Gamecube controller (since the controller is compatible with the system), but I may just get it for cube. We'll see.
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JS: With regards specifically to Smash Bros., that is a title that is not necessarily going to be using the Wii motion control.
PK: It may or may not, but I guess it's still in development, so let's talk when it's done.
JS: One of the developers said at the event where it was unveiled, "Don't throw away your GameCube controllers." That would imply that maybe --
PK: That would apply to Zelda too, and Virtual Console games...
QuoteHey... I thought of that idea!
Originally posted by: ruby_onix
Replace the D-pad and A button with a traditional four-button diamond. That means you're losing a button, right? No problem. Put in a second trigger, to match the nunchuck. You still want a D-pad? Sure, put it on the bottom of the remote, instead of those two redundant buttons. Voila! Problems solved. And now you can use the remote for more Virtual Console games than just the NES.
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Originally posted by: trip1eX
I'm buying the Wii version no matter what. I mean the whole bow and arrow thing where you'll hear your bowstring tighten as you pull the wiimote back is something I won't miss.
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Originally posted by: IceCold
Hey... I thought of that idea!
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Originally posted by: mantidor
Something I dont understand though is the D-pad/A button reachability, the remote is really small, you should be able to reach any button with your thumb easily, right?.
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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
BTW, has it been confirmed that TP will actually come in two different sold-seperately SKUs, and it's not just two different builds of the game? Like, is there any chance that the Wii version be included as a free "bonus disc" inside the case of the GameCube game?
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Zelda on Wii currently plays just like Zelda on GameCube except that it's easier to spin attack and much harder to aim ranged weapons. Unless Nintendo makes some dramatic improvements to these controls or includes an option to play with the Classic or GameCube controller, I will be buying the GameCube version of Zelda.
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Originally posted by: MechaG2
It's funny, I've read people complaining about using the touch screen to control Mario & the gang in Super Mario 64 DS, but I found it extremely easy to use. Their have been a lot of situations like this in the past. I'm not saying I'm a fantastic gamer, I just can't help but wonder how adept a lot of these critics are.
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Originally posted by: wandering
Well, the fact that Miymoto actually came in and insisted that the aiming be made harder (the designers wanted the game to compensate for hand movement from button presses, Miyamoto said actually aiming with a bow would require the archer to skillfully aim and compensate for movement) makes me think the aiming might not be as bad as a quick play-through might indicate. [edit: oh, triplex has already said this]
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
- E3 isn't really a good enviroment to play games: You have lots of people watching and waiting for you to finish and a limited time. I think this seriously affects how a game plays, especially a game like Zelda. It just doesn't beat sitting down with the game in the comfort of your own house and play it. This seems one of those games that are best enjoyed and understood playing at home instead of a large, noisy game enviroment.
That's a completely valid point to make if we were complaining about the story or music or overall game design. But it's irrelevant to the controls.Quote
- This is an early demo: You guys have to remember that a lot of these demos are running on early hardware, so you are bound to have bugs in the demos. Like Bloodworth mentioned on the Wii forum E3 is mainly a big focus group in which they gather information from the gamers and implement that info onto the final game.
Zelda has been in development for over two years, and if it was delayed last summer so it could be launched with Wii, they've had nearly a year to work on the new controls. So I don't buy this argument either.Quote
So I think a better idea would be to wait till the game is finally released and see how it plays then before declaring it a lost cause.
I'm just saying that the game's controls need a complete overhaul or I will buy the other version, which conveniently ships on the same day and is in fact the same game.Quote
And your lack of faith towards Nintendo is EXTREMELY disturbing, Ian.
Just use your Force Choke to take care of him.
QuoteThis I agree with; that title really was unnecessary..
Saying stuff like "The bittersweet truth about Zelda on Wii" makes you sound like you lost hope on the game because you played a demo of the unfinished game
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Originally posted by: pap64
I'll use as an example. Writers do something called "rough drafts". What they do is write an early version of a poem, story or essay. It is there where they put their ideas, lay them all and write them as best as possible. The thing is that with the draft the writer sometimes goes back to it, changes some paragraphs, erases unnecesary ideas, asks for second opinions and such. Once he does all the changes he then writes the FINAL version of it.
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Originally posted by: pap64
This is the same deal with Twilight Princess Wii. The demo was to try out how people react to the controllers and see what needs to be fixed before the release.
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Originally posted by: pap64
I won't doubt that the E3 DEMO had controller issues, but my qualm with your preview is that you are passing judgement on the game based on a quick E3 demo that is not even final or even running on final hardware.
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Originally posted by: pap64
It would've been better if you had written this at the end of the preview:
"So overall, the E3 demo of Twilight Princess failed to wow us with the Wii controller. However, the game is far from final and may see changes before its release. Stay tuned for further previews as the game moves along".
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Originally posted by: pap64
I know that they are still working the bugs out of the controller, the hardware and the games.
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Originally posted by: Requiem
Well maybe, but Miyamoto has never lied. He doesn't lie. If he didn't like the controls he would of said we are still working on them or something to that respect.
In fact, he wouldn't have been as enthusiastic as he was. If he thought the GC controls would have been better than that's how it would have been. I mean look at SSBB. It proves that if Wii controls don't better the situation, then they are not used. But he said could never go back to the original! That's a bold statement. And that's a little more than PR to me.
Also, has Miyamoto ever constructed a control scheme that wasn't comfortable or wasn't fun?
Never ever never never.
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Little has been done in aiming mechanics to drive the point across that the weapon is held in your hand(s), typically in the air."
So what? Seriously I don't care about that sort of thing at all. I like the fact that when I'm playing a videogame reality is compromised to make it a more fun experience. I don't want to have to have real aiming skills for a videogame. Part of the fantasy is that I can fire a bow and ride a horse and sword fight without any real effort on my part. Hell, one of the things I LIKE about Nintendo games is that they don't throw in that sort of bullsh!t. I never play Nintendo games where my character constantly needs food or there's one hit kills because it's more realistic or if I make the wrong decision I can get permanently stuck in a 10 hour+ game. There are a lot of games out there where attempts at realism hurt the fun. Aside from Fire Emblem's permanent deaths Nintendo games are typically friendly about that sort of thing.
Plus it's incredibly ironic that the whole point of the remote stuff was to streamline games and make them simpler for people that are intimidated by today's games. Yet here Zelda is being made MORE COMPLICATED by removing the streamlined method and making it harder, and thus more intimidating, to aim. HUH?
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Miyamoto's statement about not being able to go back to the GC version was in reference both to the controls and to the widescreen display.
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Part of the cause for this whole argument is that Nintendo had decided for some bizarre reason to sell two nearly identical versions of Zelda.
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Originally posted by: Nintendo
After much discussion, the Zelda development team has requested extra time to add new levels, more depth and even higher quality to Zelda: Twilight Princess. Consequently, we're announcing a new global launch in 2006, after the conclusion of this fiscal year (March 31). We'll provide a specific date at a later point in time (LOLz, no we won't). While this may come as a disappointment to many eager fans, it will absolutely enrich the game and make it a multi-million seller (if we count all the different versions). BTW, we will also be enriching ourselves, since we'll be charging extra for these sold-seperately improvements. That's just good business. Hey wait? Why didn't we just launch the GCN version right now? Ah well. No biggie. See you next year!
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Miyamoto's statement about not being able to go back to the GC version was in reference both to the controls and to the widescreen display.
Part of the cause for this whole argument is that Nintendo had decided for some bizarre reason to sell two nearly identical versions of Zelda. And since Wii is backwards compatible, all Wii owners will have the choice to make between the GC and Wii versions. The Wii has a distinct advantage with its widescreen display, but many of us don't have a widescreen TV yet. That leaves the controls as apparently the only other difference between versions. So it's natural for the controls to be a deciding point, especially when the Wii controls are clearly NOT universally preferred, at least in their current state.
And again, this argument that the game is early just does not float. Zelda has been in development for years, and the Wii version has supposedly been in the works since around the time that the delay was announced last year, which would also make it one of the earliest Wii games in development. There were third-party demos with better pointer support than Zelda had, which is ridiculous, and most of the other Wii demos had more logical, intuitive uses for the controller (fishing notwithstanding).