Topic: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng

[Adrock]

The whole point of the hybrid is to draw on the success of the handheld market Nintendo is dominating and push them to the TV where Nintendo is losing its audience.

Again, this is a consumerism device. It's not pushing the handheld people back to the TV. It's just a way for Nintendo fans to have access to all of Nintendo's games with only one machine.

I created this thread as a means to discuss how Nintendo can improve their next console. The hybrid doesn't really do that. It makes their handhelds playable on a TV which isn't the same thing.

[BlackNMild2k1]

This is the thing about the hybrid idea I can't see happening the most. The second Nintendo does this there's no going back to making a dedicated console. They would have released a handheld that can connect to a TV. Why would consumers accept a separate home-only machine from Nintendo ever again?

If the hybrid work out, Nintendo doesn't have to..., but if they have the tech, the gimmick and game ideas to produce another console, it won't be possible on the Hybrid and will actually work with it. Maybe Nintendo comes back with the virtual boy 2/Nintendo On instead.They can take their time and produce something truly innovative again. Come at that occulous rift with Nintendo games to back the hardware. They have options, the hybrid keeps the Nintendo in your living room and on the TV, iso new hardware geared at those areas will still get consideration from the consumer.

I am still having troubling with some of the details of the handheld component of your hybrid idea.

1. Does it have one screen or two? What separates 3DS and Wii U is that the screens are tethered in the former. That can produce different kinds of games that play differently.
2. If the hybrid is meant to allow Nintendo to keep supporting Wii U, wouldn't it need a disc drive? Is it meant to be fully digital?

1. I'm picturing it with one screen, and you use it with your TV for the second screen, but those are detail that could change.

2. I imagined with flashcards & digital purchases. A large HDD in your TVbox acts as the "fridge" for your digital library so you can swag what you want to with, based on what will fit your portable storage, without having redownload, or own multiple SD cards.

I haven't refined all the details in my head, just the concept of the hybrid and why it could be what Nintendo needs.

[broodwars]

From a pure hardware & firmware perspective, this is what I would ensure the Wii U's successor had:

1. The UI needs to be fast - This is a real sticking point with me on the Wii U, given that it's a console allegedly "more powerful" than the PS3 or 360's, yet its UI is painfully slow to switch between Apps or settings. It's so abysmally tedious to navigate that it's actually a large part of why I don't use the console.  This issue was made laughably more obvious after I got my PS4, whose UI has problems of its own but it's ridiculously fast to navigate and switch between tasks on the fly.  Whatever the Wii U's successor is needs to have a ludicrous amount of RAM so it can have similar capabilities.  Naturally, that RAM increase would benefit games as well.

2. The controller needs to be standard - The Wii was a fluke.  People don't generally buy consoles for their controllers. They buy them for the games.  The GamePad is an albatross around the Wii U's neck, keeping Nintendo from dropping the price while simultaneously banking on a feature that can be and has been replicated on other devices.  And yeah, I've never cared for it as a controller, either.  A nice refinement on the Pro Controller would work just fine on the next console.  Gimmicky hardware B.S. for the sake of being gimmicky is part of what made the Wii U the failure it is and drove developers away.

3.  Achievement/Trophy System - I get that many of you either don't care or actively dislike achievements/trophies. That's fine (and I understand why you feel that way), but you can't deny that such systems are popular on other consoles and it's not like Nintendo hasn't dabbled in such things before with games like Xenoblade.  Implementing an achievement system in with something like Miiverse would really help foster that feeling of community on the next console.

4. Technological Parity - If Nintendo insists on competing in a console market that includes high-end PCs; the PS4; and the Xbone, Nintendo's next console needs to have technological parity with their competition.  I understand the arguments people have for why to not do so ("driving up the cost of games", etc.), but the greater the technological divide between the consoles, the less chance there is that 3rd parties will develop cross-platform ports.  Even the GameCube, as poorly as it sold, got cross-platform 3rd party ports because it was technologically in line with the other 2 platforms.  Going with 2005 tech didn't make the Wii U a hit OR a profitable failure like the GameCube, and we've all seen what its 3rd party support looks like.  Nintendo needs to swallow their pride and join the rest of the industry with their next console.

5. Social Network Integration - This is one of those things that I honestly don't give a **** about in my console gaming experience, but whether I like it or not people seem to be eating that stuff up on the PS4 and Xbone right now.  Miiverse is a nice step in that direction, but Miiverse is limited to Nintendo's own hardware and a website that no one uses.  Meanwhile, I can play a PS4 game, snap a picture, and post it to Twitter in seconds (with a snarky quip) where people actually do see it.  No one knows what the next big Social Media network will be since they change all the time, but whatever Nintendo's next console is needs to support it.

Just a few things there. I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller.  By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.

[Ian Sane]

It was reasonable when DS and Wii were doing very different things. I'm not opposed to a hybrid machine. In fact, I'm in favor of it so long as they can make it work without compromising the integrity of what a handheld and console individually provide (it's also cheaper for me). However, I also think it's possible for Nintendo to succeed with both.

I'll agree that it's possible for Nintendo to succeed with both.  Well maybe not NINTENDO specifically but SOME company could do it.  I think Nintendo could have released a successful console this gen.  It isn't an impossible situation for Nintendo, though it was certainly more possible before they went with the Wii U.  Nintendo can succeed if they pull their heads out of their asses.  But to be realistic they won't do it.  The hybrid seems plausible without a massive overhaul on Nintendo's part.

I do have some serious doubts on Nintendo's console future though because I think that both replacing the Wii U ASAP or sticking with it for the long run carry huge risks.  Sega and Atari didn't survive a console bomb.  No one ever has so can Nintendo change that?

If I was in charge I would be working on getting a replacement out with PS4/XB1 equivalent hardware out by 2014 if possible (likely have to settle for 2015) but I don't know if that would work.  Could I get third parties to make ports for it in enough time?  Could I get first party games ready on time?  I would also expand the dev teams as they're clearly not up to the task of getting HD games out in a decent timeframe.  But again that's something that will take time to pay off on and I need the fruits of that later right now.  How do I keep this quiet long enough to not discourage Wii U sales like Sega did with the Saturn?  But I figure if we instead just wait it out that the Wii U will start costing us money and that too many years of irrelevancy will destroy any chance of a new console catching on at a later time.  The Wii U limping along is bad publicity.  Don't want people to associate Nintendo consoles with failure.

The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON.  Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.

[Enner]

The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON.  Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.

I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.

Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The whole point of the hybrid is to draw on the success of the handheld market Nintendo is dominating and push them to the TV where Nintendo is losing its audience.

Again, this is a consumerism device. It's not pushing the handheld people back to the TV. It's just a way for Nintendo fans to have access to all of Nintendo's games with only one machine.

I created this thread as a means to discuss how Nintendo can improve their next console. The hybrid doesn't really do that. It makes their handhelds playable on a TV which isn't the same thing.

It also addresses the the swarms of people who are buying smart companion boxes for their TV's.
There is a lot of things Nintendo could do with the idea, but they need to change their angle of attack because the Brute Force through your front door approach that Sony & MS are campaigning obviously isn't the route Nintendo wants to take. So perhaps the Trojan Horse approach would work better.

I'm curious to how the Wii U would have worked out had the controller actually been a (semi-)portable, had the system worked in reverse. and if the UI wasn't so slow from the start. I wonder if that would have captured peoples attentions and not led to the confusion of "what is it? is it an add on? so it's a tablet that's connected only to the Wii...?" nonsense that killed a lot of hype for the system before it was even released.

The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON.  Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.

I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.

Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.

I think if they want to bring a proper Pokemon game to a single player per TV experience, it needs to be an MMO style game that combines Colosseum, Pokemon Snap and Warcraft style gameplay. An MMO that allows you to grind to some extent on the handheld version. Hell, even bring a little of the card game into play and take the game offline, and/or Skylanders style collectibles that you can activate into your game. Could be the biggest most profitable thing Nintendo ever did... if only they didn't always feel the need to have done it first or not at all.

[Ian Sane]

The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON.  Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.

I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.

Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.

Using Pokémon Colosseum to suggest that Pokémon won't work on a console is like shitting on a cone and complaining that no one will buy your chocolate ice cream.  As you stated, the game sucked.  In regards to anything involving sales that is the easiest way to explain a failure.  The world is working properly when lousy products fail.

[Khushrenada]

A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?

It might seem smart in a way because then all games they make will appear on one device instead of having to split up their games development so that some appear on a handheld and some appear on a console. Maybe Nintendo could support such a system just by themselves only. But what happens long term? Is that going to bring over the big third party games people keep hoping will show up on a Nintendo console? Probably not as I doubt such a device would be able to be as powerful as whatever the competition decides to step up to next. So then, people would still have to get another system for such experiences. Thus, why should they buy this odd system? For the Nintendo games only?

How many people own a 3DS and a Wii U? How many own a 3DS and not a Wii U? How many own a Wii U and not a 3DS? Let's be crazy and say the numbers are 10%, 85% and 5%. If Nintendo goes to a hybrid console, then does that mean the 5% of Wii U owners joins the 85% of 3DS owners when they merge them together and they will all buy this hybrid? What happens to the 10% extra sales they had in making two seperate pieces of hardware? Both had potential for more growth and to increase in sales. Now that is gone because they will only buy 1 piece of hardware. If Nintendo had went hybrid after the Gamecube, would they have made the money they made with 1 piece of hardware like they did with 2?

That's why a hybrid won't happen.

[Adrock]

I do have some serious doubts on Nintendo's console future though because I think that both replacing the Wii U ASAP or sticking with it for the long run carry huge risks.  Sega and Atari didn't survive a console bomb.  No one ever has so can Nintendo change that?

I'm baffled that anyone still makes comparisons to Sega and Atari. Nintendo isn't even remotely in the same position as those two. 3DS is devouring everything in its path. While Wii U is struggling, it's a good sign that sales dramatically increase every time Nintendo manages to releases new software. The barometer for Wii U being a bomb is whether Nintendo can make money on it. I suppose time will tell on that one; it's just not time to throw in the towel just yet. Nintendo isn't content with a console with mediocre sales even if it turns a profit, but it's reason enough to fight another day.

It also addresses the the swarms of people who are buying smart companion boxes for their TV's.

Does it? So many TVs these days come with Smart Apps. For those who want the companion boxes, do they even want video games? I'm not sure that's the same audience.

There is a lot of things Nintendo could do with the idea, but they need to change their angle of attack because the Brute Force through your front door approach that Sony & MS are campaigning obviously isn't the route Nintendo wants to take. So perhaps the Trojan Horse approach would work better.

I definitely agree that Nintendo needs to change their approach which is why I back the Steam idea. I think it comes with the least amount of compromises. What Nintendo really wants is an ecosystem to control their own software and they really want to continue selling consumers two of them. There are only so many Nintendo fans. Nintendo knows they need third party games in order to expand the reach of their hardware, but they're going to have to give something up, make some compromises. I don't think cutting an entire product line is really what they want or what's best.

A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?

A hybrid ultimately means Nintendo is surrendering the console market; they wouldn't be competing in that space. Such a device would be seen primarily as the successor to 3DS that also happens to connect to a TV. It would likely do well against micro-consoles like Ouya, OnLive, or even Vita TV.

The biggest fallout of Nintendo going the hybrid route is that it would probably make Nintendo itself smaller. People seem to think that consolidating the hardware would result in more games on a single machine. Yes and no. I think it's likely that Nintendo would lay off a bunch of people due to redundancy then contract out when needed. They would only need to support one platform. Instead of a handheld Mario and a console Mario, there's just Mario. There would be more games on the hybrid, but fewer games total.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Creating a hybrid that carries with it support for Wii U games doesn't necessarily mean Nintendo would be stepping out of the console game, it would just extend the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with the Wii U.
They could still come to market with a Nintendo7 VR  machine or whatever the next innovation is in Nintendo's console playbook. They tend to revisit ideas once the technology catches up and becomes cheap enough to use.

Reversing how the Wii U works as the successor to the 3DS is probably the only way to attempt to make a healthy profit off the low powered Wii U by giving reason to the low powered nature of the system.

I do also see the benefits of a Steam Machine, but realistically giving up direct contact& licensing fees with 3rd parties seems like a last resort, but.... they could also do both things. I would love for Nintendo adapt some of those system wide features & sales policies if they didn't just adopt Steam as their 3rd party service.

[MagicCow64]

It needs to be highlighted that the hybrid (in my conception at least) would be coming out a year before the PS5/XBTWO. What would Nintendo rather do at that point: release a tech-parity console, release another underpowered home console at PS4 levels of power to more derision, or release a PS4.2 level hybrid? I think the hybrid would be more appealing; you'd have to upgrade handheld teams to program at that level, but you dodge the arms race with super-duper HD development, and plus your handheld devs were going to have to upgrade anyway. And like has been said, this would give Nintendo room to come back to the home console scene with something extraordinary. The Gamecube might as well not have existed for most Wii owners, we could see something similarly slate-cleaning.

Something's gotta change. As a competitor in the Dewrito contemporary US-oriented console gaming world, Nintendo is kaput as anything other than a niche player.

[sweetfeathery]

A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?

How would offering one device that gives consumers the best of both worlds shrink Nintendo's market? There is a difference between choosing to shrink and re sizing your company to reflect on what you can actually deliver to the public.
If we look back on recent history, the big problem Nintendo faced with the Wii in 2009 was that they needed to start developing titles for the 3DS and the Wii U, which forced them to start cutting support on their current home console. It was really fun waiting on one last big Wii title and seeing games like Xenoblade not even be brought to the states without consumer outcry. 
With the Wii U, they launched the console with only a handful games because they were not ready for the HD market, and of course, they were also making games for the 3DS! The Wii U is now starting to appeal to consumers with titles like Super Mario 3D World and Pikmin, but these should have been launch titles! Because Nintendo has stretched themselves too thin the console is one year behind on releases.

[Adrock]

Creating a hybrid that carries with it support for Wii U games doesn't necessarily mean Nintendo would be stepping out of the console game, it would just extend the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with the Wii U.

Even if the intention is to leave the door open for a new home console, I'm not sure the market will accept that.

And I don't grasp this idea that Nintendo would be extending the the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with Wii U. Nintendo would be launching a brand new system. All that research and development, manufacturing etc. just adds to the amount Nintendo would have to recoup.

Reversing how the Wii U works as the successor to the 3DS is probably the only way to attempt to make a healthy profit off the low powered Wii U by giving reason to the low powered nature of the system.

I don't think that's how to make a profit off Wii U let alone the only way. Nintendo's software has always been their primary source of revenue. At this point, it's probably not even sold at a loss anymore. They just need to continue releasing games.

I do also see the benefits of a Steam Machine, but realistically giving up direct contact& licensing fees with 3rd parties seems like a last resort, but.... they could also do both things. I would love for Nintendo adapt some of those system wide features & sales policies if they didn't just adopt Steam as their 3rd party service.

If Nintendo is opposed to money hats and sucker deals with third parties that Sony and Microsoft occasional engage in, Steam is the logical course if Nintendo wants to guarantee third party support in the console space for the life of the hardware. I'd rather see Nintendo get third party support without Steam, but I don't know if that's possible. Nintendo can make the calls, have the meetings, negotiate, and come to terms on a variety of things (e.g. specs). The problem is that third parties could still choose to refuse support or worse, drop it later if they consider sales unsatisfactory. Steam isn't a perfect solution, but it's certainly the path of least resistance.

There are ways for Nintendo to improve their standing without going that route. If we start with a console that third parties want to support on paper (e.g. Nintendo kept them involved, considered/implemented some of their suggestions etc.), they could always undercut Sony and Microsoft. Start with lowering licensing fees below what the others are asking. On top of that, Nintendo could set MSRP for games at $50 then cut licensing fees even further to compensate to the point where third parties would still be making more per game sold on a Nintendo console versus the other consoles even at a lower MSRP. The point would be that Nintendo takes a smaller cut yet ultimately makes more money than they do now on licensing fees because they would have more support. The caveat would be that Nintendo would also have to sell their games at $50. The point, like the lower licensing fees, is to make a smaller profit per unit but hopefully sell greater volume.

This could work in the beginning if Nintendo catches Sony and Microsoft with their pants down. It's a start, a nice incentive as long as they don't keep racing to the bottom if the competition tries to match.

[Adrock]

I forgot to mention this in the OP.

Launch With Mario Kart 9
Regardless of hybrids and whatnot, I think this would be the best choice. It may be risky because Nintendo would be leading with their most successful multiplayer title and things could potentially only go south from there. I think it's important to launch with such a strong title to get the console off on their right foot with a game that has such a wide audience. I also specifically mention Mario Kart 9 because 4DS should get Mario Kart 10. It would be better to have the first Mario Kart in years come to the hardware that needs it more. While I doubt Mario Kart 9 and 10 will launch so close together, it would be wise for Nintendo to avoid anything like releasing New Super Mario Bros. 2 months before launching a new console with New Super Mario Bros. U.

[Spak-Spang]

I like the idea of launching with Mario Kart 9.  I think it is important to fill the multiplayer experience for the console.  It is what helps drive sales the most, having fun with friends. 

I think Nintendo needs to launch with 3 strong games.  Typically one of those games is a racing game.  Mario Kart 9, sounds like the best game to launch with. 

If I was to suggest anything I would suggest launching with:  Mario Kart 9, Wii Sports or Wii Party, or whatever casual game they want, and a Metroid game. 

This would give you a strong single player experience.
A strong multiplayer experience that is a bridge game everyone loves.
A strong casual game. 

I would not launch with less than 3 Nintendo published exclusive games on the shelf day 1.  I would also push this multiplayer atmosphere with having each system come with 2 controllers from the beginning.

[tendoboy1984]

I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller.  By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.

Just add a CPU, OS, GPU, and SD card and there you go. The "TV box" will basically be an Apple TV/Roku that acts as a back-up device (with a 500GB hard drive) when playing the handheld console on the TV.

[Kytim89]

I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller.  By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.

The battery life of the Gamepad is already atrocious, so adding all of those things will make it worse.


Just add a CPU, OS, GPU, and SD card and there you go. The "TV box" will basically be an Apple TV/Roku that acts as a back-up device (with a 500GB hard drive) when playing the handheld console on the TV.

[tendoboy1984]

That's an easy fix. Nintendo can just use a bigger (higher capacity) battery. Tablets and smartphones have great battery life and they do much more than the Wii U GamePad.

[RedBlue]

I keep reading how cool this hybrid console is going to be, but not one of you has brought up battery life for this awesome tablet. Unless you want to lug around a charger not going to happen.

[Spak-Spang]

Is the battery life horrible for an iPad?  How about iPhone?  The battery life is terrible because Nintendo gave us a horrible battery.  They even could have given us a bigger battery from the beginning, but even that battery is not as good as what is available. 

[RedBlue]

Try playing on your ipad for hours with "Wii U level" graphics and see how long that "awesome battery" last. And the majority of the weight on those devices come from the huge batteries. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+Air+Teardown/18907 So yeah there is no magical battery that can last for hours.

[Kytim89]

Tendoboy, it's a matter of physics. If you want a powerful handheld then you have to pay for it with weak battery life.

[smallsharkbigbite]

How would offering one device that gives consumers the best of both worlds shrink Nintendo's market?

How does Nintendo expand their market?  Most people in the home console market now choose PS4/XBO due to their more powerful systems, better third party support, better online infrastructure.  Do you believe that if the Wii U was in reverse, that it would significantly compete against the PS4/XBO?  It still lacks significantly in those areas so I don't see how those individuals that pick those consoles want a Nintendo hybird.  I'm actually curious to how many people that own a PS4/XBO own a 3DS that isn't for their kids.  I don't think the majority of the console consumer market really cares what Nintendo is doing. 


I don't think the home console market is waiting for Nintendo to release a hybrid to get excited about Nintendo.  I think people buy systems due to games.  If Nintendo is unwilling to get the third parties on their systems they have to come out with New IPs that excite the market. 

Something's gotta change. As a competitor in the Dewrito contemporary US-oriented console gaming world, Nintendo is kaput as anything other than a niche player.

Shouldn't the solution be to leave that market then, not invite Sony/Microsoft to bring hybrids to compete in their lucrative handheld market?  I'm just confused why Nintendo gets hammered in the console space with hardware, but then we expect them to be able to win on hardware with a hybrid? 


I think any Nintendo come back in the home console market is going to be a slow process that takes place one brick at a time.  A new IP that gets a few people to defect, better hardware that gets people excited to play Mario on, better relations with third parties that get some games back.  Maybe long term the market with mix handheld/home console, but I don't think it's in the best interest of Nintendo to rush that transition.  I don't see the hybrid as a way to flip the market and suddenly get Nintendo back to #1. 

[tendoboy1984]

Why not do something like the NES, N64, or Wii, release a console unlike anything else that's come before it. Oh wait, they already tried that with the Wii U and it's falling on its face. I guess 4th time isn't a charm.

[NWR_insanolord]

The NES wasn't unlike anything that came before it, and really neither was the N64.