Topic: NWR Forums Top 10 Zelda Games

[Stogi]

OoT, WW, LttP and LBW spoilers... kinda...

So, in OoT, Saria is a sage.  She's a kid who, if she leaves the forest, she dies (or, possibly, turns into a Skull Kid...).  So, how does this young child have babies that become her descendants later on?

That deku nut!

[Luigi Dude]

OoT, WW, LttP and LBW spoilers... kinda...

So, in OoT, Saria is a sage.  She's a kid who, if she leaves the forest, she dies (or, possibly, turns into a Skull Kid...).  So, how does this young child have babies that become her descendants later on?

Well at the end of Ocarina of Time it shows some of the Kokiri partying at Lon Lon Ranch with everybody else so it seems they do have the ability to leave the forest without dying.  Plus Saria isn't a child since the Kokiri are creatures that happen to take the forms of children in Ocarina of Time, but are much older then actual children and can actually change their forms which they did in Wind Waker when they became the Koroks that are now wood creatures. 

It's kind of like how in Fire Emblem Awakening you can marry a little girl and actually have a baby with her because she's actually a 1,000 year old dragon who's human form just so happens to look like a little girl, but since she's a 1,000 year old dragon she's considered legal so it's okay.  Saria's like that where she's really a much older forest creature that happens to look like a young girl, so it's okay if someone has children with her and won't appear on a Hyrule version of To Catch of Predator because she's not a real little girl.

[Adrock]

A more troubling implication is that since the end of Ocarina of Time shows that the Kokiri can, in fact, leave the forest, they've been lied to for ages. Why would the Kokiri believe they would die if they left the forest? Probably because The Great Deku Tree told them and why would they question him? He's supposed to be their guardian and protector. The Kokiri loved and trusted The Great Deku Tree implicitly and he just lies to them because he's old, lonely, and can't do **** when he gets cursed and giant spiders infest his body. Keep in mind, he also lies to them about Link's lineage. So you have these childlike creatures just living in the forest, isolated from the rest of the world with this old guy and when he dies, they're free to leave and realize everything they were ever told was a lie. That's probably the real reason Mido is sad at the end. He didn't miss Saria; The Great Deku "violated" him. How did The Great Deku Tree even get the Kokiri to stay in the first place? Did he tell them he had candy? When you think about it, The Great Deku Tree is kind of a dick.

[Khushrenada]

You had one job, NWR! One job. And I'm not just talking about the staff posting the results. Ho ho ho ho ho.

But leave it to this forum to make a mess of something as simple as making a top ten list. This is why we're the best. Excalbsior!

The major problems are:

There were 2 lists of 9 entries, 8 entries, 6 entries and 5 entries. I did top ten totals based on if you took those short lists and gave their entries the full point totals, i,e. #1 is worth 10 points and number 5 is worth 6 points. I also compiled a total where those lists were given values based on the amount of entries. So, for a list of 8, the number 1 entry would be worth 8 points instead of 10.

In both cases, the list stayed the same except spots 5 and 6 changed places and 8 and 9 changed places. Everything else stayed equal. When presenting this to the staff, they were going to go with the full point option where a 5 entry list would be worth 10-6 points.

Then there were issues in versions of games. For instance, some people voted for Link's Awakening GB version, some for Link's Awakening DX version. Do you include them as one game or list their seperate entries?

But that isn't the only handheld issue.

The Oracle games are a big issue. Some people voted and gave a spot to each version. Others voted and put both games in a single spot. So, how should those games be counted? Are they counted as a seperate entry each or do you combine them? I mean, reaaaaaaalllllyyyyyyy guys!

If you combine them, how do you tally the point totals? Let's say sombody's list has #5 - Oracle of Ages, #6 Oracle of Seasons and #7 Wind Waker. Do you say the Oracle games get 6 points from that list, skip seasons and give Wind Waker 4 points? Or would you bump the rest of the games up to the now vacant spot of #6 with it being counted by Ages and give Wind Waker 5 points? Or would you go with the lower ranking and give the Oracle games 5 points from that entry?

For me, I thought it best to include them as seperate entries. Going with the high values point totals mentioned, these were the grand totals of points for those games:

Ages - 41 points
Seasons - 40 points
Oracle (both games as 1 entry) - 20 points.

Now the good news is that by going with the higher valued listings, no matter how you divide the points, you won't affect your top ten. Minish Cap at #9 has 70 points so even if you were to add 20 points to both other oracle games, no position on the chart changes. If you give each an extra 10 points, no position changes either above or below either.

Fortunately, in the end the oracle game points were only an issue if you went with the lower valued lists which is another reason why it was tallied that way.

Finally, some final things you may not care about but I'll mention in regards to tabulation.

Adrock made a list of 11 games. His 7th game was Four Swords Adventures and his 10th was Four Swords Anniversary. His 11th game was Minish Cap. I disregarded the 10th vote and moved Minish Cap to the 10 spot. The extra point has no bearing on its position and would stay at the 9th spot with or without it.

One person voted for Wind Waker HD but I combined that with the regular Wind Waker votes. Keeping them together or seperating them makes no change on Wind Waker's 3 place spot.

And now for what you've been waiting for. The results!

[Khushrenada]

These totals were compiled on Nov. 26, 2013. So, if you want to include new information, it is up to you to retabulate everything. I've done my duty. Now, from the issues mentioned above here, I am going to post three lists for your viewing pleasure. Choose the one that best suits you.

First up, this list is on the higher valued totals of shorter lists, with the Link's Awakening and Wind Waker versions combined and with the 20 points of combined Oracle games added to both seperate Oracle entries:
 
1. Ocarina of Time - 240 points
2. Link to the Past - 207 points
3. Wind Waker - 179 points
4. Twilight Princess - 163 points
5. Majora's Mask - 159 points
6. Link's Awakening - 148 points
7. Skyword Sword - 130 points
8. Legend of Zelda (Nes) - 72 points
9. Minish Cap - 70 points
10. Oracle of Ages - 61 points
11. Oracle of Seasons - 60 points
12. (Tie) Four Swords Adventure and Adventure of Link - 39 points
14. Phantom Hourglass - 14 points
15. Spirit Tracks - 13 points
16. Crossbow Training - 9 points


This 2nd list is based on the higher valued totals of shorter lists, with the Link's Awakening and Wind Waker versions seperated and with the 20 points of combined Oracle games added to both seperate Oracle entries:
 
1. Ocarina of Time - 240 points
2. Link to the Past - 207 points
3. Wind Waker - 172 points
4. Twilight Princess - 163 points
5. Majora's Mask - 159 points
6. Link's Awakening - 133 points
7. Skyword Sword - 130 points
8. Legend of Zelda (Nes) - 72 points
9. Minish Cap - 70 points
10. Oracle of Ages - 61 points
11. Oracle of Seasons - 60 points
12. (Tie) Four Swords Adventure and Adventure of Link - 39 points
14. Link's Awakening DX - 15 points
15. Phantom Hourglass - 14 points
16. Spirit Tracks - 13 points
17. Crossbow Training - 9 points
18. Wind Waker HD - 7 points


And finally my favorite and the truest representation of this forum list is this third one. This is the list with all alternative suggestions included. This list is on the higher valued totals of shorter lists, with the Link's Awakening and Wind Waker versions seperated and with the 20 points of combined Oracle games added to both seperate Oracle entries:
 
1. Ocarina of Time - 240 points
2. Link to the Past - 207 points
3. Wind Waker - 172 points
4. Twilight Princess - 163 points
5. Majora's Mask - 159 points
6. Link's Awakening - 133 points
7. Skyword Sword - 130 points
8. Legend of Zelda (Nes) - 72 points
9. Minish Cap - 70 points
10. Oracle of Ages - 61 points
11. Oracle of Seasons - 60 points
12. (Tie) Four Swords Adventure and Adventure of Link - 39 points
14. Crossbow Training - 25 points
15. Link's Awakening DX - 15 points
16. Phantom Hourglass - 14 points
17. Spirit Tracks - 13 points
18. (Tie) All 3 CDI games, Beyond Good and Evil, Okami - 10 points
23. Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland - 9 points
24. (Tie) Darksiders, Star Fox Adventures - 8 points
26. (Tie)Dark Cloud, Game and Watch Zelda, Wind Waker HD - 7 points
29. 3D Dot Heroes - 6 points
30. Neutopia - 5 points
31. Illusion of Gaia - 4 points
32. Ittle Dew - 3 points
33. Alundra - 2 points
34. A Hat in Time - 1 point


Good job, NWR! Or at least me. The greatest poaster on these boards. All hail the king.

[Mop it up]

Nice job, Khushrenada.

I get the feeling that Wind Waker would be lower if not for the re-release.

[pokepal148]

Skyward Sword got around 130 more points then it deserved

[Ian Sane]

I think Wind Waker and Skyward Sword got overrated because of how recently people would have been played them.  But then I think Wind Waker gets overrated by its fans to compensate for the graphics controversy of its reveal.  It's easier to make the argument that the graphics don't matter if the resulting game is a classic so they make sure to emphasize that it is one.  I think both it and Twilight Princess have some very notable flaws but neither of them have to do with the graphics.  TP is probably overrated as well for being the WW counter-point on the graphics debate.  TP certainly looked more like the game I wanted but plays so close to OoT that I wonder if Nintendo made it generic on purpose to stick it to those that didn't like WW's graphics.

But the best part of this list is this:

14. Phantom Hourglass - 14 points
15. Spirit Tracks - 13 points
16. Crossbow Training - 9 points

The three shittiest Nintendo-made Zeldas, and the only ones that I would encourage a newcomer to the series to skip outright, were at the bottom of the list.  Sometimes life makes sense!  Despite the differences of opinion you'll find on this board, we at least all know a bad Zelda game when we see one!

Though next we'll do a Top 10 Metroid and you-know-what won't be at the bottom and I'll lose faith in humanity again.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I am with James on Spirit Tracks though. That game had some really great dungeons.

[Khushrenada]

Personally, I can't help but wonder if the age of the forums has something to do with the list. You've got Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker all in the top 3 which I think reflects the sort of generation we have on this board. Twilight Princess and Majora's Mask are also in that top 5 further rounding out the SNES - GC era. The only ones that are missing are the handheld games but Link's Awakening is right there at number 6 so it is only the GBC and GBA that fall a little lower.

It seems the console experience is the one people prefer considering how the handheld games did compared to their console counterparts.

Still, I do wonder a bit if the reason the newer Zeldas seem to rate lower from Wind Waker on is due to people just not having time to play them anymore and moving on. It could also be a question of access. I never had a GBC or GBA until a got the original DS which could play GBA games but by then, I'd missed out on Minish Cap and the Oracle games. That's one thing I've loved about the 3DS is having the virtual console and Ambassador program to finally be able to acquire these games and play them. I still haven't played Skyword Sword myself either because for some time, I'd fallen out of gaming but I seem to be getting back into it more and more and finally playing through some of my backlog.

Anyways, just some thoughts about the final lists that came to me when reviewing the data.

[NWR_insanolord]

I voted for Battle Quest in the staff version of this, and I was sad to see no one did the same in this one.

[Ian Sane]

I think the age of the forums affects the list but more in that a lot of us are the right age to have experienced the series throughout most, if not all, of its life.  We played the games in the context of their release which is why a game like OoT topped the list while some kid who started with Skyward Sword would probably find OoT dated.  It's less nostalgia but rather understanding the full context of the game's release.  OoT was arguably the greatest game ever made when it came out.  Skyward Sword was not and didn't come across as particularly ambitious for the time period it was released in.

I think we also have enough context to observe a small decline in the quality of recent Zelda games.  Not that they're junk (at least when they don't have dumb touchscreen controls) but we often talk about what step Nintendo needs to take with Zelda, implying that we all kind of feel Zelda's best days are in the past and Nintendo needs to do something to shake things up.  It's clear that the series' reliance of tropes introduced in earlier titles makes each new game a little less interesting to long time fans that can spot all the tropes a mile away.  If you're a newcomer you'll just think this Zelda game kicks ass because those tropes are pretty good.  But if you know the whole context of the series you get less from it.  You were impressed when the idea was first introduced to you, which would be in an earlier game.

Do you consider polish or innovation more important?  Is OoT a better game for introducing new ideas or TP for refining them?

[Mop it up]

Link's Crossbow Training is a good game, and probably one of the best "rail shooters" on the Wii. It just isn't going to stand up to a normal Zelda game for various reasons, but it is fun in its own right.

[NWR_insanolord]

Crossbow Training is to Zelda what Prime Hunters is to Metroid: a really good game in a completely different style from the rest of the series.

[Shaymin]

Khush, thanks for tallying up the list. I'm going to be referring to it heavily on Tuesday, for one thing.