Topic: Zelda: Does it need to change?

[Spak-Spang]

Easycure:  I agree.  The debate of if Zelda should change is mute...we already know it will.

The real question is what you posed will it be too much?  And we shall see...I am just glad Nintendo is still creating games that I enjoy because without Nintendo creating games I would be outta the industry because Xbox 360 and PS3 has very little to offer me.

 

[EasyCure]

Easycure:  I agree.  The debate of if Zelda should change is mute...we already know it will.

The real question is what you posed will it be too much?  And we shall see...I am just glad Nintendo is still creating games that I enjoy because without Nintendo creating games I would be outta the industry because Xbox 360 and PS3 has very little to offer me.

 

Now thats TWO things we can agree on

What's everyones opinion on this:

What if Nintendo was using Links Crossbow Training as a template for a more action oriented Zelda shooter?

[Mikintosh]

Easycure:  I agree.  The debate of if Zelda should change is mute...we already know it will.

The real question is what you posed will it be too much?  And we shall see...I am just glad Nintendo is still creating games that I enjoy because without Nintendo creating games I would be outta the industry because Xbox 360 and PS3 has very little to offer me.

 

Now thats TWO things we can agree on

What's everyones opinion on this:

What if Nintendo was using Links Crossbow Training as a template for a more action oriented Zelda shooter?

It'd be thought of as an amusing side game like the first one, and people would still be waiting for the next "real" Zelda game. Can't reinvent the wheel when the consumers don't want it.

[Stogi]

Ok, we all know that Zelda is going to change. The question I posed makes you answer the why; why does it need to change?

Now I love TP; I've played it three times already, but even with all of it's inventions, it still felt "safe." That's why I think they need to do something really bold and really interesting like WW did for the style of Zelda (by far the best style yet).

[Ian Sane]

What if Nintendo was using Links Crossbow Training as a template for a more action oriented Zelda shooter?

The Zelda fanbase will crap on it and have every right to if it's being presented as the next "true" Zelda game and not just some spinoff.  About half will buy it anyway because they regard fandom as some unconditional duty and the other half won't.  It will sell better in Japan however and Nintendo will decide to continue Zelda in that direction as the amount of new Zelda fans that come on board will outnumber the amount of old fans that didn't like it.

If Nintendo is truly going to rehaul Zelda I think they're likely going to make it more like the 2D games but with a lower difficulty and with blatant hints telling you what to do.  OoT was a VERY complex game.  It let you do so much and we all thought it was great as a result.  But that is a such a different design then Nintendo uses now.  Link being able to ride a horse and assign three different items to buttons and certain items using a first person view and z-targeting and tons of sidequests and time travel and stuff like that is probably out.  I imagine we'll have a fixed view Zelda (camera controls are complicated) which is more linear in approach.  Complete the dungeons, win the game.  You can explore the world but the freedom will be scaled back to make the objective of the game more obvious.

[King of Twitch]

TP safe? What about the snowboarding, dragon flying, field battles, boar-riding, dead Zelda..     ?

Or the bold, unprecedented Tingle-free experience?

[UltimatePartyBear]

Please get rid of the boats.  Give Link a Dolphin so we can just Wave Race our way around the seas.  Transitions between modes of travel should be seamless.

Anyone else remember the rumors that the horse in TP was really a shape shifter named Poseidon that was also the hawk and wolf?  I loved that idea (even though I doubted it was true back then), and I'd love to see it done in a future Zelda game.  Link apparently has to have a talkative companion, so it might as well be some sort of little whatsit that can both hide in his pocket stating the obvious and do useful stuff.  It would even make a good excuse for lengthy overworld quests for new animal forms, such as a creature to ride across the sea.


Regarding a non-Link character, I just don't see that working from a story perspective, or at least not the way I see it.  It's not simply always Link, but rather it's always the Triforce of Courage.  The following is based on my own inferences from the games, and future developments could shoot it all down, but it's how I view the Legend of Zelda series. 

The Triforce of Power made Ganondorf into an immortal evil godlike being in response to his desires, but the Courage and Wisdom counterparts responded to Link's and Zelda's desires to stop him.  Since Ganon is immortal, Link and Zelda are reincarnated by the Triforce whenever he is close to regaining enough power to be a threat again.  Zelda always reappears in the royal family because Wisdom dictates that that's the best place to be to get ready to fight Ganon.  Link, however, always ends up someplace more "fun" due to the influence of the Triforce of Courage.  It protects him, but by nature it pretty much has to put him somewhere where he'll have great challenges to overcome, or at least where he can get regular adrenaline rushes.

Now, since it's the Triforce of Courage's response to the original Link's wish to stop Ganondorf that drives the legend, it simply does not make sense for some other character to be the hero, or even do some of the work for him.

That's not to say you can't do more with the series than the usual Ganon storyline, as my favorite entries prove.  For one thing, Nintendo could explore why the Master Sword already existed before Ganon appeared (if Ocarina of Time explained anything, I've forgotten it).  It would even be harder to include Link in such a game than not.

[EasyCure]

TP safe? What about the snowboarding, dragon flying, field battles, boar-riding, dead Zelda..     ?

Or the bold, unprecedented Tingle-free experience?

Oh god... The Legend of Zelda: Tingle's Tale *horrifying thoughts*

Please get rid of the boats.  Give Link a Dolphin so we can just Wave Race our way around the seas.  Transitions between modes of travel should be seamless.

Anyone else remember the rumors that the horse in TP was really a shape shifter named Poseidon that was also the hawk and wolf?  I loved that idea (even though I doubted it was true back then), and I'd love to see it done in a future Zelda game.  Link apparently has to have a talkative companion, so it might as well be some sort of little whatsit that can both hide in his pocket stating the obvious and do useful stuff.  It would even make a good excuse for lengthy overworld quests for new animal forms, such as a creature to ride across the sea.


Regarding a non-Link character, I just don't see that working from a story perspective, or at least not the way I see it.  It's not simply always Link, but rather it's always the Triforce of Courage.  The following is based on my own inferences from the games, and future developments could shoot it all down, but it's how I view the Legend of Zelda series. 

The Triforce of Power made Ganondorf into an immortal evil godlike being in response to his desires, but the Courage and Wisdom counterparts responded to Link's and Zelda's desires to stop him.  Since Ganon is immortal, Link and Zelda are reincarnated by the Triforce whenever he is close to regaining enough power to be a threat again.  Zelda always reappears in the royal family because Wisdom dictates that that's the best place to be to get ready to fight Ganon.  Link, however, always ends up someplace more "fun" due to the influence of the Triforce of Courage.  It protects him, but by nature it pretty much has to put him somewhere where he'll have great challenges to overcome, or at least where he can get regular adrenaline rushes.

Now, since it's the Triforce of Courage's response to the original Link's wish to stop Ganondorf that drives the legend, it simply does not make sense for some other character to be the hero, or even do some of the work for him.

That's not to say you can't do more with the series than the usual Ganon storyline, as my favorite entries prove.  For one thing, Nintendo could explore why the Master Sword already existed before Ganon appeared (if Ocarina of Time explained anything, I've forgotten it).  It would even be harder to include Link in such a game than not.

See this is a major problem with Zelda when it comes time to discuss it. Because in game story lines became more prevalent in later entries, a lot of fans fill in the blank spaces with their own ideas and finds a way to add them into every Zelda ever. Maybe it's just been awhile, but please show me which Zelda clearly dictates that the reason our hero is always Link is because he wished upon the Triforce of Courage.

The only definite i can think of is the reason Zelda is always the Princess and thats because Zelda II clearly states that there are multiple Zeldas. The original one being the comatose one you're trying to revive. She was put under a wizards spell and to honor the slumbering princess, every girl born into the royal family is to be named Zelda.

UPB, you said that you based all that on your own views of the series so if it sounds like i'm ragging on you, I'm not. There are people out there that have these wild ideas and defend them to the death; like that Link and Zelda are brother and sister. Personally I like having some room in the story for my imagination to fill in, but when it comes to discussing something like this, it becomes hard when someone can't let go of their own assumptions.

[KDR_11k]

Oh god... The Legend of Zelda: Tingle's Tale *horrifying thoughts*

Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupee Land.

[EasyCure]

Oh god... The Legend of Zelda: Tingle's Tale *horrifying thoughts*

Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupee Land.

Portable RPG not released in NA

I'm talking about a console Zelda with Tingle in place of Link

[UltimatePartyBear]

UPB, you said that you based all that on your own views of the series so if it sounds like i'm ragging on you, I'm not. There are people out there that have these wild ideas and defend them to the death; like that Link and Zelda are brother and sister. Personally I like having some room in the story for my imagination to fill in, but when it comes to discussing something like this, it becomes hard when someone can't let go of their own assumptions.

I'm not just making assumptions.  I'm trying to read between the lines.  Every time the events of a game challenge what I thought I understood, I rethink it, so I'm not completely opposed to changes to the series (you should have seen me when Lucas confirmed the Stormtroopers were clones, making volumes of Star Wars Expanded Universe material require ever more hackneyed excuses to still fit in the same universe; I gave up on reading the books instead).  It would take too long and be really boring if I spelled out why I think the way I do (and you can't expect explicit clarifications in anything that comes out of Japan).  To sum up my thoughts as concisely as possible, a Link and Zelda being around every time Ganon has caused trouble is either destiny or an impossible coincidence.  If they make a Zelda game in which Link is not the hero, it throws the destiny possibility out the window and leaves us with no plausible reason for Ganon not to have already won.  I think that would damage the entire series' credibility, and not as stories but as works the creators actually care enough about to not treat that way.

I'm okay with not being able to figure out a timeline.  Even F-Zero has a more sensible timeline than Zelda.  I'm okay with divergent graphical and even gameplay styles.  At some level, though, there's a core that makes it the Legend of Zelda instead of the Legend of Some Other People.

As an aside, I actually would like for Nintendo to make the Legend of Some Other People because I'd like for Nintendo to use its talent without holding anything back to fit into an established franchise.  I just don't get why anyone would want Girl Space Pirate Link in a Zelda game instead of Girl Space Pirate Somebody Else in something brand new.

[ThePerm]

I'd still love to see a side game where you play as Ganondorf.

yeah i would love a game called the legend of ganon, because his story is super interesting. His rise to power, his abuse of it. If a game was done like zelda, but from his perspective it could be really good.

For instance during the war in hyrule before link was born in oot, link's mother was driven into the forest(so says the young deku tree). Where she would die and link would be raised by the kokiri. Well, what about Ganon's role during this time? Link had a father..who was this? Does Ganon kill him?

[KDR_11k]

To sum up my thoughts as concisely as possible, a Link and Zelda being around every time Ganon has caused trouble is either destiny or an impossible coincidence.

Well, yeah, triforce. Then again "link" (you can pick his name after all) is just a random boy who happens to be of a certain lineage and Zelda is the name for every princess (not even necessarily considering Wind Waker, just the lineage seems to be enough) so there wouldn't be many times when Ganondorf could appear without there being a boy of the hylian soldier lineage and a girl of the hylian royal lineage around which would then take up the usual roles in this play.

Not having a real timeline helps the series IMO. That way there won't be any consistency errors.

[EasyCure]

To sum up my thoughts as concisely as possible, a Link and Zelda being around every time Ganon has caused trouble is either destiny or an impossible coincidence.

Well, yeah, triforce. Then again "link" (you can pick his name after all) is just a random boy who happens to be of a certain lineage and Zelda is the name for every princess (not even necessarily considering Wind Waker, just the lineage seems to be enough) so there wouldn't be many times when Ganondorf could appear without there being a boy of the hylian soldier lineage and a girl of the hylian royal lineage around which would then take up the usual roles in this play.

Not having a real timeline helps the series IMO. That way there won't be any consistency errors.

I feel that way too. I feel that if they try too hard to put things into a timeline, they run the risk of holding back creative ideas in story/characters just to be consistent to whats already there.

[Stogi]

I don't understand why Link has to be born with the Triforce. Why can't he find it? Or it "find" him?

[Bill Aurion]

Well as we've already seen (even recently in Wind Waker), Link doesn't HAVE to be born with the Triforce...And wouldn't "it finding him" mean that he'd be born with it?  It's not like the Triforce is some sort of entity that can walk around...(Haha, just thought of a game where you'd play as the Triforce...)

Also, as seen in every game, his existence corresponds to some calamity that has come over the land...Yes, his character is a "fate" persona, and regardless of who you'd play as in a Zelda game, you'd still TECHNICALLY be the "fate" persona (aka Link)...

Which is why if you really want a Zelda-type game with new characters, you should start e-mailing Miyamoto about resurrecting StarTropics...

[Stogi]

"Finding him" doesn't mean he has to be born with it. The Triforce could be like the Master Sword, in that only Link can obtain it and thus "finds him" by weeding out all those rest.

[Bill Aurion]

That's a pretty round-about way of saying "Link goes to find the Triforce"...

Not to mention that the Triforce isn't something that is exclusive to any one person...Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf have been born with it in some games, yes, but they can also be stolen or used by others as well...

[EasyCure]

That's a pretty round-about way of saying "Link goes to find the Triforce"...

Not to mention that the Triforce isn't something that is exclusive to any one person...Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf have been born with it in some games, yes, but they can also be stolen or used by others as well...

Let Link kill Ganon and take the Triforce of Power already and have him turn into some permanent Oni-Link just more badass.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Well as we've already seen (even recently in Wind Waker), Link doesn't HAVE to be born with the Triforce...And wouldn't "it finding him" mean that he'd be born with it?  It's not like the Triforce is some sort of entity that can walk around...(Haha, just thought of a game where you'd play as the Triforce...)

Also, as seen in every game, his existence corresponds to some calamity that has come over the land...Yes, his character is a "fate" persona, and regardless of who you'd play as in a Zelda game, you'd still TECHNICALLY be the "fate" persona (aka Link)...

Which is why if you really want a Zelda-type game with new characters, you should start e-mailing Miyamoto about resurrecting StarTropics...

This.  This is what I was trying to say.  The Link-Triforce... link is predestined whether Link is born with it, goes to find it, or trips over it on the way to the store.  You can name Link anything you want, yes, and every princess is supposedly named Zelda (depending on when in the nonexistant timeline that's supposed to have happened), yes, but we're still talking about a predestined struggle between Ganon and other bearers of the Triforce.  That's the Legend of Zelda.

Side stories can work in the series, and often work very well (my theory is that it's because it frees the developers from the constraints of the main series, which is why I want to see them cut free completely sometimes), but they have to fit into the Legend.

[Stogi]

I think Link after having defeated Ganon can go on to do almost anything. MM proved that. Sure it fits in the Legend, but Link isn't ANYTHING without the Triforce.

[Adrock]

The only way for Zelda to make any sense in a timeline would be if Nintendo restarted the entire franchise and planned a coherent series of events because the current history of Hyrule, as it stands, is an irreparable mess. Only Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass are directly tied to each other in any meaningful way. Every other game either contradicts something else, retcons significant established facts, makes no sense, or doesn't fit anywhere/can fit anywhere. How do you reconcile a history that is constantly being altered without any care for continuity?

Now I'm not advocating restarting the entire series (though I'm certainly open to the idea) so don't take this as a debate starter. I simply view most Zelda games as separate entities outside of a flowing timeline because there's very little continuity. It's easier than trying to make sense of a storyline that Nintendo spent very little time constructing. Gameplay first, everything else second... I get it. Just don't expect me to trying to figure out what Nintendo probably hasn't. It's just not worth the effort.

[Ian Sane]

The only way for Zelda to make any sense in a timeline would be if Nintendo restarted the entire franchise and planned a coherent series of events because the current history of Hyrule, as it stands, is an irreparable mess. Only Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass are directly tied to each other in any meaningful way. Every other game either contradicts something else, retcons significant established facts, makes no sense, or doesn't fit anywhere/can fit anywhere. How do you reconcile a history that is constantly being altered without any care for continuity?

I agree.  In fact I think when Nintendo started trying to tie it in is when they f*cked it all up.  It used to be that the games came in pairs and those games would be direct sequels but any connection to the rest of the series would just be a few subtle hints.  The fans pretty much came up with something themselves which was pretty good and didn't have too many inconsistencies.  Wind Waker was the first time Nintendo tried to directly link the gams together and it completely goofed the whole thing up.  Going all Waterworld on us and telling us fishmen evolved into birdmen in about a century made it impossible to logically connect any of the other games to the series except the N64 games.  Having a major history altering event like a flood is a pretty, well, STUPID thing to throw in because you can't explain it away if it doesn't fit into the existing world.  I now just don't pay any attention to the Zelda storyline beyond the current game I'm playing though.

So yeah Nintendo would have to start fresh or retcon any game involving the flood out of the series.  But they don't care so I pretty much can't care.  They give me no reason to.

[Bill Aurion]

Going all Waterworld on us and telling us fishmen evolved into birdmen in about a century made it impossible to logically connect any of the other games to the series except the N64 games. 

I'm sick of correcting this misconception...

[Stogi]

How in God's name did you find a screen cap so quickly?