Author Topic: What makes Zelda Zelda?  (Read 27613 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Svevan

  • Not Afraid of Being Afraid
  • Score: -9
    • View Profile
    • Continuity
What makes Zelda Zelda?
« on: February 15, 2008, 03:56:48 AM »
That said, the game IS definitely inspired by Zelda games in general, and I believe the producers even admitted the fact...
It's true, Okami is very inspired by Zelda, but to me it does Zelda a one-up by following its own path and its own plot. There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series. The only Zelda games that are as organic as Okami, in my mind, are Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.

Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:51:02 AM by Svevan »
Evan T. Burchfield, aka Svevan
NWR Message Board Artist

My Blog

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
What makes Zelda
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 04:10:56 AM »
That said, the game IS definitely inspired by Zelda games in general, and I believe the producers even admitted the fact...
It's true, the game is very inspired by Zelda, but to me it does Zelda a one-up by following its own path and its own plot. There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series. The only Zelda games that are as organic as Okami, in my mind, are Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.

Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

I don't think that's very fair, comparing a long-established series to a single "one-of-a-kind" game...For Zelda, the designers have to make the game different enough to be unique, but at the same time make it similar enough that it's still a Zelda game...Because why even bother calling it Zelda otherwise? (Financial benefits aside, of course...)
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Deguello

  • Cards makes me ill.
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
What makes Zelda
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 05:00:33 AM »
Bill's right, Svevan.  The theory of Zelda's "predictability" is quashed if you ever consider that somebody's first game in the series might have been Twilight Princess or Majora's Mask.  The only reason Zelda is "predictable" is because it is a series with a lot of fans and all news items about the next game are disseminated en masse and consumed at a rapid pace.

And the idea that Zelda is "bound" to some kind of rigid plot structure is thrown around a lot but I don't see the evidence supporting it.  There can't even be a claim of Ganon being the bad guy each time, as he's only the bad guy in half the games and less than that if you don't count 4 swords.

"There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series."

This is an interesting claim, possibly because it shows an unconscious attitude about the "Zelda fatigue."  Please remember that "defining" something is an action that no inanimate object can make.  The comment that the qualities of this definition are "stupid" and "inexplicable" places the weight of these attacks on the DEFINERS.  A rock does not tell a tree it is a tree.  And besides, in the wake of all the Zelda hysteria of Wind Waker not being a Zelda game because it didn't "look like one" and the Metroid hysteria of Metroid Prime "not being a Metroid Game," it'd be natural for Nintendo to throw a few familiar things in there. Hell, Zelda Phantom Hourglass got the "non-game" treatment, it had more than it's "Zelda-ness" to worry about.  You could possibly see how Nintendo wants at least a modi*** of familiar themes and ideas if only to assure overly sensitive gamers that yes, you are playing a game that features Link and is called Zelda.

Besides, you're talking Capcom here.  Don't you think if Okami didn't bomb out on the PS2 they would have Okami 3 exclusive to the 360 in Japan by now?  ;D
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 05:07:04 AM by Deguello »
It's time you saw the future while you still have human eyes.

... and those eyes see a 3DS system code : 2750-1598-3807

Offline Svevan

  • Not Afraid of Being Afraid
  • Score: -9
    • View Profile
    • Continuity
What makes Zelda
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 05:23:49 AM »
I don't think that's very fair, comparing a long-established series to a single "one-of-a-kind" game...For Zelda, the designers have to make the game different enough to be unique, but at the same time make it similar enough that it's still a Zelda game...Because why even bother calling it Zelda otherwise? (Financial benefits aside, of course...)

Bill: the real question is what makes Zelda "Zelda." It's a question for a different thread though, and I'd bet we'd disagree on the nitty gritty details. My point has always been that dungeons make up a part of what makes Zelda "Zelda," not the whole.


Deg: first off, don't give me a grammar lesson.

And besides, in the wake of all the Zelda hysteria of Wind Waker not being a Zelda game because it didn't "look like one" and the Metroid hysteria of Metroid Prime "not being a Metroid Game," it'd be natural for Nintendo to throw a few familiar things in there....You could possibly see how Nintendo wants at least a modi*** of familiar themes and ideas if only to assure overly sensitive gamers that yes, you are playing a game that features Link and is called Zelda.

This is the one thing I agree with that you said, and I think it supports my point more than yours. Either way, we agree that when Nintendo changes the formula, the "fans" get upset, while reasonable thinking gamers like you, me, and Bill recognize the value of the changes. This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it, and they could do so MORE than they have. That's all I'm saying.

Okami was fresh while still feeling Zelda-y. Wind Waker and Majora's Mask were too. TP was for about two thirds of its play time, while the other third dragged, in my opinion.
Evan T. Burchfield, aka Svevan
NWR Message Board Artist

My Blog

Offline Deguello

  • Cards makes me ill.
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
What makes Zelda
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 06:02:15 AM »
Hey I didn't mean to be a Grammar Nazi, it's just interesting how a choice of words can change the intended meaning of a statement.

Besides, Nintendo's "straying" from the Zelda path never cost it its sales in the marketplace or reviews or even general opinion.  There would always be some oddball like Gamespot's 8.8 for TP our own Review of Phantom Hourglass, but generally, Zelda games are still well-received no matter what they are.

In my opinion, my statement supports my point more than yours, because the "Zelda Hysteria" may not necessarily come from fans to begin with, just like the whole "ZOMG Non-game" stuff.  We are in a brave new games press era, where relative objectivity has been traded for brash side-choosing and open bias, such as evidenced is EGM's two-issue feature on how Endless Ocean is a non-game.  Suddenly new definitions pop up left and right and new categories and it's getting pretty hard to keep track of what a game is and what a game isn't. and what's casual and non-core and tonglime-cardhore and graaah!  Maybe IGN should issue a chart, Terror-Alert style, maybe some kind of color wheel, so we can all keep up to date on the latest definitions.  So, even though Nintendo is clearly not beholden to these hostile press outlets, they do require them to disseminate information.  And because of this, when they use the word "Zelda" they better have a left-handed elf guy in green.

Okami does not have this problem, so it can copy parts of Zelda's formula, and put a wolf in it, set it in Mythological Japan and call it "fresh."

Imagine William Shakespeare's King Lear, and Akira Kurosawa's Ran (that's "Rahn" for those unfamiliar.)   Ran is really nothing more than a Japanese version of King Lear.  No matter how stylistically and "different" it is.. it's still just King Lear in a Shogun outfit.

And as to the unfairness, here is a childhood psychological example.  Imagine being a gifted 7-year-old child (I don't have to imagine Ha-HA!) and getting scolded by a teacher for getting a trigonometry problem wrong.  The imagine having an autistic or retarded kid in the room write his name in his own drool and get praise for the "progress he's made."  While I don't think the differences are that extreme between TP and Okami, there is a certain biasedness towards the new even if all the "new" is nothing more than the old in different clothes.  More was expected of Zelda and much, much less was expected of Okami, and that was reflected in it's reviews and sales.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 07:36:37 PM by Deguello »
It's time you saw the future while you still have human eyes.

... and those eyes see a 3DS system code : 2750-1598-3807

Offline Svevan

  • Not Afraid of Being Afraid
  • Score: -9
    • View Profile
    • Continuity
What makes Zelda
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 06:06:43 AM »
You might have a point, but I don't think you've played Okami, and I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons. It is DIFFERENT than Zelda, yet the first thing people say when they play it is "Oh, like Zelda, awesome."

Your points on the redefinition of terms are interesting, worthy of a different thread.
Evan T. Burchfield, aka Svevan
NWR Message Board Artist

My Blog

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
What makes Zelda
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 06:22:29 AM »
This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it, and they could do so MORE than they have. That's all I'm saying.

I'm actually rather curious as to what you think would "break the formula" in the Zelda series while keeping its core intact...For me, the base Zelda formula rotates around two things: 1) the character Link, with a secondary importance of Zelda, and 2) dungeons focused around using the item treasure found within and using said item to defeat the dungeon boss...If you take away either, the essence of what makes the game "Zelda" is lost...So the designers must build around these two aspects in order to make the game unique, but this generally seems to require changing the environment more-so than the actual gameplay (eg. Wind Waker's mostly ocean overworld, Majora's Mask's time-based managing and hustled exploration, etc...)

Otherwise the game is just Zelda in name only, and no one wants that...The fans want the essence of the game to be similar, and non-fans would be just fine with a completely new IP, no?

(Edit: The only progression I could possibly see is through additional environment manipulation, like a potential return of the Rod of Seasons or something similar...That way you could introduce new puzzle elements while still keeping the core Zelda gameplay...)

I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons.

Actually, could you be more specific on this?  (Having not played it yet and all...)  Isn't this what the Zelda series does anyway?  It maintains "Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons" (because it's Zelda, obviously), and the main focus is on the changes in story and environment...On top of that you have new gameplay mechanics added through new tools for Link to pillage and use...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:31:56 AM by Bill Aurion »
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 06:31:37 AM »
Zack & Wiki > Twilight Princess
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline stevey

  • Young HAWNESS
  • Score: 15
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 06:45:28 AM »
They do

nothing else counts

j/k

All that needed for a Zelda game is
Boy meets Princess/Girl
Boy gets sword
Boy kills and solve puzzles
Boy save Princess/Girl
Boy ***** Princess

nothing else is really needed in a zelda game, everything else is filler.

Quote
This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it,

What about MM, LA, PH, Tingle rupee land, Tetra based game, and Zelda II. They were very different from Zelda formula proving nintendo does steer away from any formula and all are still Zelda and loved for the most part while WW is hated while nothing is really changed from other Zeldas.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:04:45 AM by stevey »
My Demands and Declarations:
nVidia is CRAP!!!
BOYCOTT Digest mode and LEGEND OF OO!

Your PM box will be spammed with Girl Link porn! NO EXCEPTION!
Wii want WaveBirds

Stevey Duff
NWR HAWTNESS Inspector
NWR Staff All Powerful Satin!

Offline Nick DiMola

  • Staff Alumnus
  • Score: 20
    • View Profile
    • PixlBit
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 06:51:42 AM »
What makes Zelda "Zelda" is not it's story or it's characters in particular. This is why the whole Zelda is stale argument always strikes me as stupid. Zelda is about a play style. It is about exploring a huge world and figuring out the importance of each part of that huge world. It is about interacting with characters and learning what they need in order to return their existence to normal. It is about going into a dungeon and solving the puzzles and cleverly dispatching enemies with the variety of tools you are given. Being a part of Zelda, since the very first game, has been about being a part of a world and learning how to master the world around you. You start small and insignificant, and by the end you are the hero, you are the master of the land. That quest to attaining that status within that land is what makes the game so glorious. The game never tricks itself into getting caught up in too much story. It gives you enough to get by and convey the importance of your quest and that's it. The rest of the lore of the land is obtained through adventuring. As the game progresses, you realize your existence is not confined to just a story, you are unbound to do what you like within the confines of the land. If you want to side quest and help people or fish or go to a shooting range, that is your prerogative. Thankfully these tasks are separated from the story giving your existence more meaning within the game.

People who get caught up in the concept of needing a story line are missing the point of Zelda IMO. You aren't playing the game for a story, you are playing it to become a part of Hyrule, to become a hero.
Check out PixlBit!

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 08:08:14 PM »
Quote
Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

To me Twilight Princess came off as Nintendo overcompensating for Wind Waker backlash.  They tried too hard to make a fan friendly Zelda and as a result it ended up being too by the book.  Though for any new gamers first introduced to Zelda on the Wii it's a great start.  Still Nintendo failed to realize that change wasn't the reason for Wind Waker's backlash but rather the specific nature of the change.  But then I think a lot of companies in any entertainment field have difficulty interpreting fan opinion.  Hell I didn't like Wind Waker as much because of the big blue ocean of nothing and because I didn't like the graphic style.  But maybe that's not a common opinion.  Hell maybe what I don't like about Twilight Princess is precisely what others like.

To me Zelda would be defined by the existance of Link as the main character, having real time interaction with the game world, a mix of puzzles and fighting, and a fair amount of freedom to do things at one's own pace.  And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 08:19:14 PM »
What makes Zelda "Zelda" is not it's story or it's characters in particular.

And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

There is still a lot of mystique that falls back onto the Link character...Take a Mario game for example...You could take Mario Galaxy and replace Mario with, uh, a giant penguin, and the game would FEEL like a Mario game, but WOULDN'T BE a Mario game...Feeling like something and actually BEING something are two different things...Zelda games ARE to some point about a different (usually) young man  being tied to the same string of fate as those that came before him and those that come after him...Replacing Link (and his green-clad self) with someone else would only make a Zelda-ripoff...
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline UltimatePartyBear

  • Voice of Reason
  • Score: 35
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »
For me, the base Zelda formula rotates around two things: 1) the character Link, with a secondary importance of Zelda, and 2) dungeons focused around using the item treasure found within and using said item to defeat the dungeon boss...If you take away either, the essence of what makes the game "Zelda" is lost...

On that second point, A Link to the Past, possibly the game with the most influence on the rest of the series (put another way, the most Zelda-y Zelda), features several boss fights that require nothing but your sword.

Offline Mikintosh

  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2008, 10:26:39 PM »
Quote
Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

To me Twilight Princess came off as Nintendo overcompensating for Wind Waker backlash.  They tried too hard to make a fan friendly Zelda and as a result it ended up being too by the book.  Though for any new gamers first introduced to Zelda on the Wii it's a great start.  Still Nintendo failed to realize that change wasn't the reason for Wind Waker's backlash but rather the specific nature of the change.  But then I think a lot of companies in any entertainment field have difficulty interpreting fan opinion.  Hell I didn't like Wind Waker as much because of the big blue ocean of nothing and because I didn't like the graphic style.  But maybe that's not a common opinion.  Hell maybe what I don't like about Twilight Princess is precisely what others like.

To me Zelda would be defined by the existance of Link as the main character, having real time interaction with the game world, a mix of puzzles and fighting, and a fair amount of freedom to do things at one's own pace.  And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

As a huge fan of Ocarina of Time who has never played a lot of the 2D game before but has finished all the 3D ones after it, I thought that Twilight Princess was a welcome return to that kind of "adult" Zelda storytelling and style, though I loved Wind Waker too (tho it took me three years to finish...I get distracted easily). I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see; they wanted to create a lush, epic Zelda game that just happened to be in the style of Ocarina of Time. Yes, the game's structure wasn't as well organized as Ocarina's, but it was comparable to Majora's Mask to me, and that's just fine. I do hope we get a sequel of sorts to it though, as they didn't really delve into the Twilight world's history as much as I would've liked, and the abrupt ending made me want to find out more. Maybe a DS spin-off a la Phantom Hourglass?

I do think Link needs to be the hero of any Zelda game as he is the "link" (ha ha) that connects every other title, and he's never had a sidekick that'd be an appropriate replacement. Though actually, a game featuring the TP design of Zelda with Smash Bros.-esque moves would probably be pretty sweet, if done right.

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 10:55:30 PM »
On that second point, A Link to the Past, possibly the game with the most influence on the rest of the series (put another way, the most Zelda-y Zelda), features several boss fights that require nothing but your sword.

There are always exceptions to the rule... =)

And even then the series has evolved since to be almost exclusively dungeon item boss battle-focused...

I do think Link needs to be the hero of any Zelda game as he is the "link" (ha ha) that connects every other title, and he's never had a sidekick that'd be an appropriate replacement. Though actually, a game featuring the TP design of Zelda with Smash Bros.-esque moves would probably be pretty sweet, if done right.

I personally think it'd work out best if they went the Wind Waker path and had her be playable at a certain point within a normal "Link-dominant" game...That way you could add in variety as well as get two viewpoints on a situation, killing two birds with one stone...
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline nitsu niflheim

  • Eye-Candy Andy
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2008, 11:00:59 PM »
I would play a Zelda game where "Zelda" was the main character and playable character.  I like the idea very much.
Currently Reading:  Odd Apocalypse ~ Dean Koontz
Currently Watching:  ?

Offline Nick DiMola

  • Staff Alumnus
  • Score: 20
    • View Profile
    • PixlBit
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2008, 11:07:30 PM »
I would play a Zelda game where "Zelda" was the main character and playable character.  I like the idea very much.

Well aren't you a lucky duck. They already made such a game, and it's called Zelda's Adventure
Check out PixlBit!

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2008, 11:10:07 PM »
I think bringing up the CD-i Zeldas in a Zelda topic should be set as a bannable offense! =(
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 11:19:32 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 11:31:36 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.

And I'll have to make my hate-list on what PH did wrong.
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline DAaaMan64

  • Winner of the Most Terrible Username Award
  • Score: 10
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 11:36:39 PM »
I think there is something about Zelda games and imagination that the game makes you feel when you are playing as Link. I believe that stems from the character of those that talk to you and Link's lack of speaking.

Everything Ian said I agree with also and Deguello, you are a good writer.
FREEEEEDDDDDOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Marvel Heroes - Marvel Heroes
Frozen Shoe Games

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For I am with me.

Offline Nick DiMola

  • Staff Alumnus
  • Score: 20
    • View Profile
    • PixlBit
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 11:40:29 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.

And I'll have to make my hate-list on what PH did wrong.

Just let me know when you are putting that list together, I'd love to help.
Check out PixlBit!

Offline nitsu niflheim

  • Eye-Candy Andy
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 11:43:52 PM »
My complaint with TP was that in the end it really wasn't different enough, it was basically the same style of game done three times before.

My complaint with PH was that it wasn't long enough, even with the main temple having to play through it from the beginning each time, the overall game could have been longer.
Currently Reading:  Odd Apocalypse ~ Dean Koontz
Currently Watching:  ?

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 11:49:52 PM »
I guess that means I have to make a list what you all did wrong...Don't make any extra work for me... =(
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 11:51:33 PM by Bill Aurion »
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline nitsu niflheim

  • Eye-Candy Andy
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2008, 12:58:19 AM »
I dare you!
Currently Reading:  Odd Apocalypse ~ Dean Koontz
Currently Watching:  ?